Criticism of Moderation

[ImperatorK]

Okay. First of all, quoting PMs without consent of the sender is dickish; there's a reason they were private in the first place. Don't do that.

Sorry, but I'd rather be a dick then be told in red text that I lie. You doubted the authenticity of the PM. Would it be more believable if I'd just give my word for it?
Unlike some people, I don't outright lie. I can only be misinformed, like in this situation.
But whatever. It's not like I contribute to the community, so my opinions can be ignored, right?

[Basket Burner]

1: I was not put on moderated status. I was threatened with it, which caused me to lose what little respect I had left for them as a result of their obvious biases, but I left because there was nothing here but idiots flamebaiting me and people not nearly as skilled as they think they are, and are yet unwilling to learn.

You weren't the only one to receive a warning.

As we mentioned in this thread after the fact, any time this stuff is dealt with privately, it leaves each side feeling like they were singled out. There is more than one poster who has claimed that they were singled out and the others got away with nothing.

It wasn't the warning that made me lose respect for the mods. It was the contents of the warning.

In this thread, or elsewhere?

Edit:
I can see two potential posts you might be referring to in this thread, but context-wise, to me, it looks like they're discussing modding in general in these situations.

This thread, and there are more than two. They just became a little more subtle about it.

Just stick with it, BB! Ignore the flambaiters and jerks, and stay nice. It will sting for a while, but eventually you will just be another poster, and people will stop reacting violently to your posts.

I know you don't deserve some of the hate around here, but you can just ignore the people who hold a grudge! Every member of this community is valued as long as they don't alienate themselves and remain helpful rather than hurtful.

Try just a bit longer!

Post before yours gives the option to show to view. Should I do it?

One click later...

No, I really should not have.

Honest question. If I ignore the flame baiters, the jerks, and those that refuse to learn, how many are left? Most of the people in the third group have already left I suspect, or simply don't care.

As for grudges, the last post by Sunic is what? Eight, nine months before I joined. And there was still enough of a grudge that anyone that acted remotely similar was discriminated against in the same manner. No, I do not think that is a possibility. The people here are far too prone to grudges. The only way to not be alienated in such a case would be to allow them to walk all over me and to mindlessly accept the incorrect groupthink. This is also not a possibility.

The same goes for BB. Calm down and everyone else will.

That goes both ways. But game theory says that the winning strategy is to be the first to forgive.

I am being calm here. Surprisingly, most here are at least smart enough to realize that when I say I am testing people to see if they behave that they will behave. A few won't, even then. I've also already tried that. The first few problem posters went on ignore... and more came up. You can see them here. They are the ones that are still acting out even when given the chance to prove me wrong and being explicitly told that is what I am doing.

Unfortunately however... while Imperator is a dick for reposting PMs, comments such as:

We're gonna try and see if putting him at 35% will work for a while. More work for us, but at least then we can try and drill some common sense into his head.

Mean one of two things:

ImperatorK is lying.
At least one mod is acting in an extremely inappropriate manner as such language is clearly aggressive and speaks of a very unprofessional bias.

If the first were true, he would have said so, so it must be the second. This coincides well with my previous experiences with him.

See the problem here gentlemen? The moment I start to see signs that I might be wrong, you make sure to prove me wrong about thinking I might be wrong.

Edit: People keep mentioning percentages but those aren't visible anywhere, nor is there any way to even see warnings and infractions here.

[oslecamo]

The first rule here is "don't be a douche";

Listen to this words carefully, in particular because they come from a person that has actually sticked for them. I've never seen Prime32 being a douch in the net. Not saying he's the only other poster in the net I respect, but Prime32 has basically a saint-like immunity to provocations. He may choose not to reply to offensive/troll comments, but he's never been a douche towards others, and always seeks to keep discussions civil/funny. I strive to be as good as a poster as him every time I post, altough I still fall into douchery here and there.

Seeing Prime32 forced to use red text kinda pains me actually, but it goes to show he's trying to stop a flame spiral.

That goes both ways. But game theory says that the winning strategy is to be the first to forgive.

Or at least forget, somewhat easier. Sometimes the winning strategy is simply to walk out and let the flames extinguish by themselves.

[Basket Burner]

I am not sure if this is directed at me, him, or in general. Just one comment.

That goes both ways. But game theory says that the winning strategy is to be the first to forgive.

Or at least forget, somewhat easier. Sometimes the winning strategy is simply to walk out and let the flames extinguish by themselves.

Nine days says that doesn't work. Nine months stands as a greater monument to misplaced hatred.

[Mooncrow]

It's a simple enough thing to test - ignore the flame bait, try posting in a constructive, civil manner, with proof to back up your claims, and see who's actually interested in what you have to say. 

My bet would be that the flame would disappear pretty quickly in the face of contrary evidence.  But, it does require contrary evidence to actually be there. 

The ball is in your court.

[SneeR]

In answer to your honest question, an honest answer.
Who is left? The people who care about game design and D&D.

Everyone else can just carry their little personal quibbles on home and hold their grudges until their knuckles whiten, but if you do just as Mooncrow and I have been saying, the people who are worth talking to will be the ones who accept you. Everyone else just isn't worth it.

So, what do you say?

[archangel.arcanis]

BB I will admit I did reference you in one of my posts after the direction of the thread was changed. It was in no way a complaint about you, it was my issues concerning my understanding of the situation before you went on your 9 days break. If you felt I was being unfair or out of appropriate context, sorry.

As to believing you and Sunic are one in the same. I suspected it due to the nearly identical posting styles and attitudes about things. I honestly don't even care about that at this point, but I did want to let you know my basis, which I would suspect is similar to many of the others who thought/think the same thing. If that bothered you then again I'm sorry.

As to your statements about being nice until being provoked. I have to say you are right about starting off being nice. After seeing you say that I went and looked at your posting history, because as you said it doesn't lie. I only looked at your first 20 or so posts, but you were being nice to people and not posting in any way I would find offensive. I didn't read deep enough to see the change in style I can't give my opinion if it was provoked or not.

[Basket Burner]

It's a simple enough thing to test - ignore the flame bait, try posting in a constructive, civil manner, with proof to back up your claims, and see who's actually interested in what you have to say. 

My bet would be that the flame would disappear pretty quickly in the face of contrary evidence.  But, it does require contrary evidence to actually be there. 

The ball is in your court.

No, the ball just flew past you. It was previously in my court. It has now been passed. We shall see how this goes.

In answer to your honest question, an honest answer.
Who is left? The people who care about game design and D&D.

Everyone else can just carry their little personal quibbles on home and hold their grudges until their knuckles whiten, but if you do just as Mooncrow and I have been saying, the people who are worth talking to will be the ones who accept you. Everyone else just isn't worth it.

So, what do you say?

I suspect there are not very many of those, as if there were this problem either would not have occurred, or would not have occurred to the same degree. I am currently of the mindset that those who are worth talking to either don't care about this debacle and are staying out of it (two of my players fit this criteria, the rest don't have anything to do with these boards to my knowledge) or have already left. I am willing to be proven wrong. I don't recall having too many problems with you. I am far less inclined to take Mooncrow for his word, but we shall see.

BB I will admit I did reference you in one of my posts after the direction of the thread was changed. It was in no way a complaint about you, it was my issues concerning my understanding of the situation before you went on your 9 days break. If you felt I was being unfair or out of appropriate context, sorry.

You were one of the people that I was thinking of but don't remember exactly what you had said.

Not counting this one, you have four posts in these thread. Three are direct bashes, and the fourth is arguably so. It's clear both from the posts themselves and their contents that you were quite hostile, despite my not having many conflicts with you.

As to believing you and Sunic are one in the same. I suspected it due to the nearly identical posting styles and attitudes about things. I honestly don't even care about that at this point, but I did want to let you know my basis, which I would suspect is similar to many of the others who thought/think the same thing. If that bothered you then again I'm sorry.

That situation is complicated and not one that I think any here deserve to have explained to them. There are some hints scattered about, but not a single person here has come to the correct conclusion.

As to your statements about being nice until being provoked. I have to say you are right about starting off being nice. After seeing you say that I went and looked at your posting history, because as you said it doesn't lie. I only looked at your first 20 or so posts, but you were being nice to people and not posting in any way I would find offensive. I didn't read deep enough to see the change in style I can't give my opinion if it was provoked or not.

I will summarize the process:

I join, start posting.
Some people ask if I am Sunic. Others accuse me of being him. I ignore it initially, then start getting annoyed when it continues.
XCodes, who I previously had gotten along with a few times starts being a total dick. He does not stop when prompted, so I put him on ignore and that's that.
ImperatorK soon follows after.

I didn't think too badly of this, as a few bad posters does not make for a bad forum. But when the ignore list grew several more names, even more people came out to be aggressive and harass me, and even the site staff got in on it I started fighting back.

After a while it became apparent that this was just a pointless flamefilled trollfest. So I decided to leave, got preempted by 5 minutes and you know the rest.

[archangel.arcanis]

If you consider what I said bashing then you are far too sensitive about it. In one I was critical of the way you post everything else was directed at the mods handling of the situation. Your history of not responding to moderation in general was the only other mention of you.

[SneeR]

If you consider what I said bashing then you are far too sensitive about it. In one I was critical of the way you post everything else was directed at the mods handling of the situation. Your history of not responding to moderation in general was the only other mention of you.

Don't push the subject.
I think everyone has learned their lesson, hopefully. I think we should go back to criticizing the mods. 

I'm actually pretty surprised this topic hasn't been locked! Congratulations, everyone, on being mostly civilized in a controversial thread!

[Basket Burner]

If you consider what I said bashing then you are far too sensitive about it. In one I was critical of the way you post everything else was directed at the mods handling of the situation. Your history of not responding to moderation in general was the only other mention of you.

Perhaps. But when someone is frequently attacked they expect more of the same. So anything that could be either offensive or coincidental is going to be taken as the former. Precedent supports it.

[archangel.arcanis]

If you consider what I said bashing then you are far too sensitive about it. In one I was critical of the way you post everything else was directed at the mods handling of the situation. Your history of not responding to moderation in general was the only other mention of you.

Perhaps. But when someone is frequently attacked they expect more of the same. So anything that could be either offensive or coincidental is going to be taken as the former. Precedent supports it.

Well those statements weren't intended that way. Though I will try to be more considerate of that in the future, and I would ask the benefit of the doubt.

[Mooncrow]

No, the ball just flew past you. It was previously in my court. It has now been passed. We shall see how this goes.

You've started posting again, and I've indicated, civilly, that I'm willing to listen to anything worthwhile you have to say.   

We will indeed see how it goes.  For what it's worth, I am rather embarrassed that I got as worked up as I did, and in the future I will refrain from the confrontational tone and snide comments.  But, I won't accept assertion for fact, either. 

My assumption is that you play at the same (real or virtual) table as Sunic - though, again, I don't really care one way or the other. 

[Basket Burner]

Not quite, but you are getting closer.

The mods themselves haven't commented. Particularly the problem one, Sinfire.

[Sinfire Titan]

Not quite, but you are getting closer.

The mods themselves haven't commented. Particularly the problem one, Sinfire.

I'll admit that what I said in the PM to IK was out of line for a moderator, so please elaborate on what exactly you find wrong with my moderation in general so we can put an end to this debate.

[Basket Burner]

Not quite, but you are getting closer.

The mods themselves haven't commented. Particularly the problem one, Sinfire.

I'll admit that what I said in the PM to IK was out of line for a moderator, so please elaborate on what exactly you find wrong with my moderation in general so we can put an end to this debate.

There was also your warning to me. While those are anonymous, I could tell by your posting style that you sent it. By the sounds of it, you are yet another person who is acting as they are because of misplaced rage regarding a specific poster. I won't repost the message, especially after calling someone else a dick for reposting private messages but both you and I know what I am referring to with that.

[Sinfire Titan]

If you are referring to the accusations of you being Sunic, they will stop.

For the record, the system does not save copies of warning messages we send. So I really can't refer to anything else that was in that warning off hand as I don't remember everything I put in it.


I'll apologize for the previous accusations, but please be more civil during debates. We've receive more reports about your posts than we have any other member of this forum, and none of us want to put someone on posting probation within a month of this forum being put up.

[Basket Burner]

If you are referring to the accusations of you being Sunic, they will stop.

For the record, the system does not save copies of warning messages we send. So I really can't refer to anything else that was in that warning off hand as I don't remember everything I put in it.

I was referring to the first three sentences, the second paragraph, and the last sentence. Though most of the rest of the message consisted of those yes. I can repost the exact words if you want.

I'll apologize for the previous accusations, but please be more civil during debates. We've receive more reports about your posts than we have any other member of this forum, and none of us want to put someone on posting probation within a month of this forum being put up.

I suspect that while I certainly have been hostile at times, that's as much because of the aforementioned raging as it is me actually doing anything wrong. Especially when there is at least one poster who thinks it's fine to intentionally be a douchebag and try to bait people into being banned and has admitted as much in this very thread. In other words, if it were anyone not affiliated with Sunic there'd be less report button spamming. I am hardly the only poster to ever be mean here after all.

This probably got lost, but earlier I asked something. Warnings, in addition to being anonymous when they are sent also seem to be anonymous after being received. There's no profile option to look at them, to see this percentage that keeps getting referenced or any of that. Come to think of it, these boards are bad about giving feedback in general. Negative, because you can't see your own infraction information and positive because you can't see what you are getting kudos from and why, etc. I just treat the latter as a circle jerk number and ignore it, but not being able to see the former is a problem.

[Tshern]

I really don't care whether or not he's Sunic, anymore.  Just ban him and be done with it, he's obviously going to be a prick regardless of what you moderators do.

Or just try to assess his points and then figure what to do? Banning should always be the last option and in this thread I see nothing that would warrant a ban for Basket Burner.

Since I missed the original thread, what makes everyone say he's Sunic? I can see some similarities in their posts, I must admit that much. However, it has already been said in one of the metaforum threads that all users should be judged by their merits here, not past behaviour. As such BB's alleged previous nicknames don't matter.

But whatever. It's not like I contribute to the community, so my opinions can be ignored, right?

Positive contributions should make no-one immune to moderation.

[RobbyPants]

This probably got lost, but earlier I asked something. Warnings, in addition to being anonymous when they are sent also seem to be anonymous after being received. There's no profile option to look at them, to see this percentage that keeps getting referenced or any of that. Come to think of it, these boards are bad about giving feedback in general. Negative, because you can't see your own infraction information and positive because you can't see what you are getting kudos from and why, etc. I just treat the latter as a circle jerk number and ignore it, but not being able to see the former is a problem.

I think the entire infraction thing and percentage is solely viewable to the mods. The actual percentage itself is arbitrary, and it's up to whoever is using it to decide how many points to add (although I think each individual mod is limited by how much can be assigned per user per day, or so). It's not meant to be publicly viewable. Although, we have discussed signing the warnings, so that way, the user could discuss the infraction with them; it just doesn't do that on its own.

So far as I know, we can't set feedback on the Kudos feature, but I could be wrong.