Author Topic: Mentalist [base] (Magipunk) (Read 14336 times)

sirpercival · « **Reply #20 on:** August 07, 2012, 08:24:06 AM »

Quote from: Garryl on August 06, 2012, 10:35:49 PM

Definitely more interesting now.

Similarization is still too strong. Massive save DC boost = eek! Consider that the Psionic Endowment feat requires you to expend your psionic focus for +1 to the DC, or +2 with the greater version, whereas this gives the bonus all the time while focused and scales up even higher.

Yeah... I mean, class features should be better than feats, and I've never thought that Psionic Endowment was worth it... but if it's too big, I can scale it back. Suggestions?

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I might make Hyperawareness key off of Intelligence instead of class level, but that's a design choice. Note that it makes this class into having a super-good Reflex save instead of the poor save it looks like.

That's not a bad idea, actually. Will do. It makes the class more factotum-y, which I love.

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The term is "gain" psionic focus, not "assume".

Oh. Um, oops. I shall fix.

EDIT: What do we think, feats-wise? Probably a couple based off mind/brainspike, one that lets you memorize an additional location, something based on resonance?

Garryl · « **Reply #21 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:47:52 AM »

Save DCs are very dangerous when they get high enough. It's not like attack bonuses where having a high value means you deal damage reliably (or do more damage with Power Attack). High save DCs mean that battles end immediately with no recourse through SoDs and the like. If you just want more reliable and more effective powers, ML boosts mike work better. With the way augmenting works for most powers, an ML boost will even have a bit of a DC boost as well if you were worried about powers not sticking. But you shouldn't be, save DCs are usually high enough against foes not buffed to the gills, and against them buffs, saveless debuffs, and dispels should be the tools of choice, not brute forcing through high saves.

Back in 3.0, there were a large number of effects that added significantly to save DCs. In the transition to 3.5, most or all of them were either nerfed (Spell Focus went from +2 to +1, for instance) or turned into CL bonuses (Archmage, Red Wizard). That's one of the changes I strongly agree with.

Edit:

Resonant Tag: Blindsense against creatures with resonance.
Rapid Refocus: You gain all of the psionic focuses you can have when you use Concentration to gain psionic focus, instead of just one.

sirpercival · « **Reply #22 on:** August 07, 2012, 09:52:09 AM »

Quote from: Garryl on August 07, 2012, 09:47:52 AM

Save DCs are very dangerous when they get high enough. It's not like attack bonuses where having a high value means you deal damage reliably (or do more damage with Power Attack). High save DCs mean that battles end immediately with no recourse through SoDs and the like. If you just want more reliable and more effective powers, ML boosts mike work better. With the way augmenting works for most powers, an ML boost will even have a bit of a DC boost as well if you were worried about powers not sticking. But you shouldn't be, save DCs are usually high enough against foes not buffed to the gills, and against them buffs, saveless debuffs, and dispels should be the tools of choice, not brute forcing through high saves.

Back in 3.0, there were a large number of effects that added significantly to save DCs. In the transition to 3.5, most or all of them were either nerfed (Spell Focus went from +2 to +1, for instance) or turned into CL bonuses (Archmage, Red Wizard). That's one of the changes I strongly agree with.

OK, yeah I see where you're coming from. Do you think it should be an ML boost? It's strictly better than wilder and anarchic initiate as written... I could make them expend focus to get the boost, maybe.

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Edit:

Resonant Tag: Blindsense against creatures with resonance.
Rapid Refocus: You gain all of the psionic focuses you can have when you use Concentration to gain psionic focus, instead of just one.

These are great, and will definitely be included. I might base it off mindsight instead of blindsense, though.

I like those very much.

Garryl · « **Reply #23 on:** August 07, 2012, 10:36:37 AM »

Expending focus for it is probably a good idea.

I might nix the always focused ability. You get up to 3 psionic focuses, with the usual ability to get more through Psicrystal Containment and the like. You don't really need a virtual 4th, and this way you won't need to worry about unforeseen interactions. With the change to Similarization expending psionic focus for an ML boost, only Hyperawareness cares about you being psionically focused anyways. Maybe move the second focus up to 7th level, the third to 14th (swapping Brainspike to 10th level; it feels a little late at 14th anyways). Assumption is a cool enough capstone anyways.

I might make Mindwhirl consume the resonance on the target.

Any chance I could convince you to tweak the exact implementation of resonance so it uses the same mechanic as the Monk I'm making here? Functionally, it would be identical, just that instead of being measured as a penalty, it would be the accumulation of points of resonance (1/fail at 3rd, 2/fail at 11th, 3/fail at 18th), which would also impose an equal penalty on saves like right now. Likewise, Mindwhirl and Assumption would function based on the amount of resonance, not the penalty suffered. There aren't any problems with the existing mechanics, I just think it would be cool to sync up.

sirpercival · « **Reply #24 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:04:29 PM »

Quote from: Garryl on August 07, 2012, 10:36:37 AM

Expending focus for it is probably a good idea.

I might nix the always focused ability. You get up to 3 psionic focuses, with the usual ability to get more through Psicrystal Containment and the like. You don't really need a virtual 4th, and this way you won't need to worry about unforeseen interactions. With the change to Similarization expending psionic focus for an ML boost, only Hyperawareness cares about you being psionically focused anyways. Maybe move the second focus up to 7th level, the third to 14th (swapping Brainspike to 10th level; it feels a little late at 14th anyways). Assumption is a cool enough capstone anyways.

I might make Mindwhirl consume the resonance on the target.

Any chance I could convince you to tweak the exact implementation of resonance so it uses the same mechanic as the Monk I'm making here? Functionally, it would be identical, just that instead of being measured as a penalty, it would be the accumulation of points of resonance (1/fail at 3rd, 2/fail at 11th, 3/fail at 18th), which would also impose an equal penalty on saves like right now. Likewise, Mindwhirl and Assumption would function based on the amount of resonance, not the penalty suffered. There aren't any problems with the existing mechanics, I just think it would be cool to sync up.

How's that? The resonance points mechanic is much, much cleaner wording-wise for the derived abilities. It also gives me ideas for feats.

sirpercival · « **Reply #25 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:24:04 PM »

Three feats are posted. I almost made a feat gives you free metapsi on resonance'd creatures, but then I realized that could easily be abused for buffing purposes...

Garryl · « **Reply #26 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:35:45 PM »

Any reason Hyperawareness (initiative) isn't an insight bonus and doesn't require being focused?

Quote from: sirpercival on August 07, 2012, 01:24:04 PM

Three feats are posted. I almost made a feat gives you free metapsi on resonance'd creatures, but then I realized that could easily be abused for buffing purposes...

That's what I have planned for my Monk, btw. Buffing, that is.

sirpercival · « **Reply #27 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:40:51 PM »

Quote from: Garryl on August 07, 2012, 01:35:45 PM

Any reason Hyperawareness (initiative) isn't an insight bonus and doesn't require being focused?

Um... momentary insanity? I'll fix it.

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Quote from: sirpercival on August 07, 2012, 01:24:04 PM
Three feats are posted. I almost made a feat gives you free metapsi on resonance'd creatures, but then I realized that could easily be abused for buffing purposes...

That's what I have planned for my Monk, btw. Buffing, that is.

Should I allow it? I guess it's like DMM except instead of spending turn attempts you spend pp (which are more useful, but possible to recharge).

An alternative is to only allow resonance on failed saves against non-harmless powers... but I dunno if I wanna go there either.

Garryl · « **Reply #28 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:45:39 PM »

Heck no, you shouldn't allow it free metapsionics! I was just commenting about using resonance for buffing in a completely different context.

sirpercival · « **Reply #29 on:** August 07, 2012, 01:48:36 PM »

Quote from: Garryl on August 07, 2012, 01:45:39 PM

Heck no, you shouldn't allow it free metapsionics! I was just commenting about using resonance for buffing in a completely different context.

Lol. That's what I thought...

Jackinthegreen · « **Reply #30 on:** August 10, 2012, 05:47:32 PM »

You might have to redo Cogitant a bit since you've changed things.

As for class flavor, every time I see Mentalist I think of the TV show with Simon Baker, so I admit I dismissed it a bit when I first read it. Now that I'm looking through it, I kinda like it. Actually, while going through it, I realize I really like the power and flavor, although since I don't have experience with doing lots of ability damage my first thought is the Int damage is pretty powerful and might be overly so in some cases.

The extra foci is absolutely brilliant though. Of course, it seems to get the most out of the class it's expected to take a psicrystal for yet another focus and also the feat to gain a focus as a move action, but I suppose the same is true of almost all psionic classes.

I might have some ideas for Neuromancer too, but I'll wait until you're fully happy with this.

Garryl · « **Reply #31 on:** August 10, 2012, 05:52:26 PM »

The only reason to fear the Int damage is with animals, where it one-shots them most of the time. Everyone else, it's more flavorful than powerful. Int-based classes will take some minor penalties but have enough Int to avoid being shut down, and non-Int based classes still have enough Int to take a couple of hits before collapsing comatose.

sirpercival · « **Reply #32 on:** August 10, 2012, 06:07:24 PM »

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on August 10, 2012, 05:47:32 PM

You might have to redo Cogitant a bit since you've changed things.

Oh definitely, that was going to happen. Thank you for reminding me, though -- I'll add it to my to-do list.

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As for class flavor, every time I see Mentalist I think of the TV show with Simon Baker, so I admit I dismissed it a bit when I first read it.

Yeah... I knew I would have that problem.

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Now that I'm looking through it, I kinda like it. Actually, while going through it, I realize I really like the power and flavor, although since I don't have experience with doing lots of ability damage my first thought is the Int damage is pretty powerful and might be overly so in some cases.

I'm glad you like it!

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The extra foci is absolutely brilliant though. Of course, it seems to get the most out of the class it's expected to take a psicrystal for yet another focus and also the feat to gain a focus as a move action, but I suppose the same is true of almost all psionic classes.

Well, yeah, a lot of classes do that. But since you get two extras, theoretically you don't have to take the psicrystal feats.

Speaking of which, a mentalist/crystal mage class with a psispellcrystal will be happening as well.

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I might have some ideas for Neuromancer too, but I'll wait until you're fully happy with this.

I think I'm pretty happy, so go ahead and hit me!

Jackinthegreen · « **Reply #33 on:** August 10, 2012, 06:18:08 PM »

Quote from: sirpercival on August 10, 2012, 06:07:24 PM

I think I'm pretty happy, so go ahead and hit me!

*shoulder punch*

Oh wait, wrong kind of hit...

I'd need to spend some more time comparing the classes and their PrC's to make sure there aren't overlaps.

One thing I will note though: I didn't see a mention of adjusting the Alertness feat effects from getting a familiar or psicrystal to work with the new skill system. Perhaps just make it +2 to Perception? Or do you want to give Skill Focus instead?

sirpercival · « **Reply #34 on:** August 10, 2012, 06:34:24 PM »

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on August 10, 2012, 06:18:08 PM

Quote from: sirpercival on August 10, 2012, 06:07:24 PM
I think I'm pretty happy, so go ahead and hit me!

*shoulder punch*

Oh wait, wrong kind of hit...

Quote

I'd need to spend some more time comparing the classes and their PrC's to make sure there aren't overlaps.

One thing I will note though: I didn't see a mention of adjusting the Alertness feat effects from getting a familiar or psicrystal to work with the new skill system. Perhaps just make it +2 to Perception? Or do you want to give Skill Focus instead?

I'd say it gives Skill Focus (Perception), just like a spellcrystal.

Jackinthegreen · « **Reply #35 on:** August 13, 2012, 06:43:31 PM »

I just noticed the Mentalist doesn't get Psi on its class skills. Psi is also listed as Cha-based (in the index at least) when I believe you want it to be Int-based, yes?

sirpercival · « **Reply #36 on:** August 13, 2012, 07:36:53 PM »

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on August 13, 2012, 06:43:31 PM

I just noticed the Mentalist doesn't get Psi on its class skills. Psi is also listed as Cha-based (in the index at least) when I believe you want it to be Int-based, yes?

Oops, and yes. I shall fix.

EDIT: Wait, it's on their skill list. I'll check the index for the skill.

Jackinthegreen · « **Reply #37 on:** August 13, 2012, 07:45:50 PM »

So it is... It seems I failed my Perception roll. I guess this is what happens when the skill name is that small.

But yes, I do know that it was listed as (Cha) in the index.

sirpercival · « **Reply #38 on:** August 13, 2012, 07:58:05 PM »

Quote from: Jackinthegreen on August 13, 2012, 07:45:50 PM

So it is... It seems I failed my Perception roll. I guess this is what happens when the skill name is that small.

But yes, I do know that it was listed as (Cha) in the index.

Fixed.

Jackinthegreen · « **Reply #39 on:** August 14, 2012, 05:06:21 PM »

So far my ideas for Neuromancer are:

Neuromancer: Divhead/Mentalist

Requirements:

Divhead: Share Overlay
Mentalist: Resonance 1
Skills: Gather Info 8 or so, Psi 8

Ideas:
Expend psionic focus to gain bonus on Hack checks
Manifest powers into personal sensor
Expend psionic focus to allow mind-affecting Divhead spells to work on things normally immune
Make Gather Info based on Int instead of Cha
Cast touch spells or manifest touch powers on teammates included in Share Overlay
Those benefitting from Share Overlay can communicate telepathically
Aid Another through Share Overlay
Resonance also works for Divhead spells

Instead of Resonance, make target easier to gain info about via Gather Info through Permanent Uplink

News:

Author Topic: Mentalist [base] (Magipunk) (Read 14336 times)