Author Topic: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder  (Read 403429 times)

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #800 on: November 26, 2015, 03:38:23 AM »
Weapon Master's Handbook stuff that stood out
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 03:42:24 AM by zook1shoe »
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Offline Prime32

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #801 on: November 26, 2015, 03:27:10 PM »
WMH is cram-packed with goodies for martial characters, fighters in particular, and even combines easily with DSP's Path of War. It's surprising.
I'm particularly fond of the feat chain that lets you use AoOs to parry ranged attacks, then use AoOs to parry spells and siege weapons, then 1/round use your BAB in place of your saving throw bonus. Or the fighter option that lets them give up one of their extra Weapon Training groups (or take a feat with Weapon Training 1 as a prereq) in exchange for using their BAB in place of their skill ranks for four skills.

On an unrelated note:
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/wasp-familiar
Besides being the easiest way to get a familiar in the game (alternatives being a 1~2-level dip, Variant Multiclassing, or the Improved Familiar Bond feat chain), a greensting scorpion grants its master +4 initiative. It's particularly good if you want to take familiar archetypes.

Offline Mogkiller

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #802 on: November 29, 2015, 11:14:09 AM »
In Pages 36-37, you were talking about Butterfly Sting.
I wanted to add somethings :
- get pounce and a gore attacks (barbarian for spirits), on a ragebred (wereboar) with Boar's Charge
- get a cleric, destruction domain in order to automaticly confirm your crits

Now, charge with your gore attack and land a crit threat that will be automaticly confirmed by the cleric. Transform your normal full-attack to an AoE with whirlwind attack.

Performance Combat, using mocking dance and performance combattant let you get a free move whenever you confirm a critical hit. You may now move at your normal speed between every auto-crit-auto-confirmed crits (add CaGM or Taunting Stance and enjoy the AoO).
Here we are, Pathfinder-nature's way of getting a real cleaver feat that overpass any kind of AC and can be used up to your number of AoO/turn.

And while we are at it, use the "cohort with fine people genius trick" to get yourself a legion of minions with at least performance combat and butterfly sting in order to trample over anything you want.

Offline Mogkiller

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #803 on: November 29, 2015, 11:24:22 AM »
The Magic section, Combining Magic Effects, says:

Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

Meaning that you can stack any kind of spells that doesn't provide bonuses "on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes" (hint, range is not an attribute, neither are evolution points). And that un-type bonuses stacks. By rules, you can overload your-self with courageous enhancement on any part you can over your body to get a lot of bonuses (if you have the money for it, that is).

By the way, it took me time to find it, so it can be worth notifying it here : the table of possible bonuses that can be applied on wondrous items. And the Warrior of the Holy Light will provide you the almighty morale bonus to AC.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 11:28:54 AM by Mogkiller »

Offline Mogkiller

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #804 on: November 29, 2015, 11:49:42 AM »
Did you know that Siege weapons are special weapons, especially poorly designed?
They are categorized by item's description, not by size, meaning that a Ballista, Light, is Large Size by design, not by use.
When comparing siege weapons to any kind of other weapon, you will notice that the damages are only stated once instead of twice (for Medium and Small), just like bonuses or effect. That's because their damages are fixed and not based on their size (just like special ammunition, or sneak attack).

So, let's get to the point: with Shrink Item you can get yourself a really, really small weapon doing a lot of damage.
Use your siege alchemist and get crazy!

Offline stanprollyright

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #805 on: November 29, 2015, 03:19:56 PM »
Did you know that Siege weapons are special weapons, especially poorly designed?
They are categorized by item's description, not by size, meaning that a Ballista, Light, is Large Size by design, not by use.
When comparing siege weapons to any kind of other weapon, you will notice that the damages are only stated once instead of twice (for Medium and Small), just like bonuses or effect. That's because their damages are fixed and not based on their size (just like special ammunition, or sneak attack).

So, let's get to the point: with Shrink Item you can get yourself a really, really small weapon doing a lot of damage.
Use your siege alchemist and get crazy!

Umm...I think it would just resort to the regular size chart and go down 4 steps.
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Offline Mogkiller

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #806 on: November 29, 2015, 03:48:02 PM »
Umm...I think it would just resort to the regular size chart and go down 4 steps.
Well, would you step down damage of SA or spells based on its user's size? Would you even change the damage described within the special ammunition? How would you even do that? The special ammunition text doesn't states any reference for base size, and the projectile will always be the same, with the same price, and the same quantity. Haven't you notice that weapon's damage are always describe using "Dmg (S)" and "Dmg (M)" because, officially, PC are considered S or M?

Don't get me wrong: stepping down the damage from 4 steps would be the thing to do. But it just isn't the same as any weapon. The chart you are linking is for "weapon size" which is, by rules, different from "item size", and siege weapons don't have a "weapon size". They have a size which is stated in the description: you cannot make a Ballista, Light that isn't L whereas you can make a C sword.
Moreover, using the same rules that I linked, let's look over the:
"If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all."
Meaning that a M creature could not use the smallest siege weapon. Yet we can, and not because rules don't apply the same way but because a siege weapon's size is included within its description. Think of a crossbow with only one "Dmg" column and specifying "This weapon's damage isn't affected by its size".
Actually, this little sentence is a tacit rule for any kind of bonus.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 04:38:08 PM by Mogkiller »

Offline MrWolfe

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #807 on: November 29, 2015, 05:05:58 PM »
Honestly, I kind of like the idea of scaling spells up or down based on size. It's always bugged me that an enormous giant or a tiny pixie produces spells with the same area and damage as a regular Joe--especially when the reach and damage of their melee weapons is scaled to their size.

Granted, that would make pixie casters somewhat less dangerous and things like dragons or ogre magi a hell of a lot more frightening, but honestly I think that's more of a feature than a bug--especially when it helps preserve the suspension of disbelief. I mean, what giant would bother with "area" spells that don't even affect the entire space of a creature their size?
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Offline stanprollyright

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #808 on: November 29, 2015, 05:50:11 PM »
"Judge me from a size, do you?"  Magic is separate, and relates to the power of the caster rather than the size of the caster.  It makes sense that way to me.  I wouldn't want the small races to be utterly screwed on damage all the time for everything, nor would i want giants and dragons to do more magic damage from size when they already do more physical damage.

Siege weapons, however, are physical and mundane weapons.  Their damage obviously scales with size.  Think of them as a creature with a natural weapon.  The size of the object is the size of the creature, the damage is based on the creature having that natural weapon at that size.
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Offline Mogkiller

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #809 on: November 29, 2015, 06:33:36 PM »
"Judge me from a size, do you?"
I pledged to only judge by the math, never by the cover!

Magic is separate, and relates to the power of the caster rather than the size of the caster.  It makes sense that way to me.  I wouldn't want the small races to be utterly screwed on damage all the time for everything, nor would i want giants and dragons to do more magic damage from size when they already do more physical damage.
An RPG isn't about making sense, it's about following rules. How could we possibly teleport otherwise? Can you imagine the anatomic's horror of being a centaur? Have you consider that a centaur's brain, being the same as a regular human while having more body parts to manage, will have less room for potential, thus making invalid the "fact" that centaurs are wise?

Siege weapons, however, are physical and mundane weapons.  Their damage obviously scales with size.  Think of them as a creature with a natural weapon.  The size of the object is the size of the creature, the damage is based on the creature having that natural weapon at that size.
The damages of a weapon does scale with size. I never disagree this point. Well, that's not entirely true: the creature (the sword that is) will do the damage of a creature of the upper size: a M sword is actually an S item, just as written here.

My point was that siege weapon are actually miswritten and that the damages doesn't scale like they should do, by rules that is. If you disagree on that point and want to scale, you would have to scale special ammunitions too, and alchemist's bomb while we are at it.
Any houserule or errata would obviously correct that. And any normally functioning GM would put this errata right away. But this thread's name is "Interesting stuff in Pathfinder", and I think that pointing out that, still, by rules, siege weapons don't scale with size is an interesting thing. That also means that your now Very Small Balista, Light will still require the same amount of people to reload and aim than when it was a L item, because the "Load" requirement is written and doesn't depend of the size of the siege weapon, only of what is written in "Table: Ranged Siege Engines".

And if you are stil not convinced, just look at the table of siege weapon and the one for equipment: the siege weapons have only one "Dmg" column, and that is because those weapons aren't designed to be made in other size. You can now look absolutely everywhere in any Paizo stuff. When damages scales there will always be two "Dmg (X)" columns, while non-scalling will only have one. Same for the feats giving natural weapons.
If you want a G Ballista you will create a Gate Breaker, not a Ballista, Light. Whereas your crossbow is a crossbow, whatever its size. A player cannot, by any means, create a Ballista, Light that isn't a L item, otherwise he will design a completely new item, a new entry that is. The entry will have new values, scaled by the chart you linked and houserule for "Crew - Aim - Load" since there's no rule for that.

-- Edit:
Honestly, I kind of like the idea of scaling spells up or down based on size. It's always bugged me that an enormous giant or a tiny pixie produces spells with the same area and damage as a regular Joe--especially when the reach and damage of their melee weapons is scaled to their size.

Granted, that would make pixie casters somewhat less dangerous and things like dragons or ogre magi a hell of a lot more frightening, but honestly I think that's more of a feature than a bug--especially when it helps preserve the suspension of disbelief. I mean, what giant would bother with "area" spells that don't even affect the entire space of a creature their size?
Whoops, didn't saw you. Well, Dragons bother to cast AMF while the description stipulates that some parts of their body will be left out! That would also means that D or lesser creature are totally useless. That would also means that any alchemist can come to a pond, put the regular amount of reagents, create a ([lbs_pound]/[lbs_potion]) * [actual_bomb_dices] damage and then throw a monster in it, destroying its very core. I honestly thing that, at this point, even a god would be crushed by receiving an ocean of bomb in the face. Well, as a DM I would have a minute of silence for the poor boy. Can you imagine the weight of the Earth's ocean? Because I can't!
Ok, I did the math: it looks like there is 1.1*e(12) liter of water on Earth. A vial of potion (filled) is 1 lbs, while the same vial is considered 0 when empty. One liter of water is 1 kg = 2.2 lbs. So there is 1.1*e(12)*2.2 lbs of water. let's say the weight of the reagent is acceptably null.
With 1L of water, you can do 2.2 vials. So the total number of vials doable on Earth is: 2.2 * 1.1 * e(12) = 2.42 * e(12).
A lvl 20 alchemist does 1d6 + 10d6 by vials. If the damage scale you now have nd6 (I'm sorry, I have no data for a weapon of a size of 1.100 km long) + (2.42 * e(13))d6 damage!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 07:19:46 PM by Mogkiller »

Offline MrWolfe

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #810 on: November 29, 2015, 08:07:30 PM »
"Judge me from a size, do you?"  Magic is separate, and relates to the power of the caster rather than the size of the caster.  It makes sense that way to me.  I wouldn't want the small races to be utterly screwed on damage all the time for everything, nor would i want giants and dragons to do more magic damage from size when they already do more physical damage.

Siege weapons, however, are physical and mundane weapons.  Their damage obviously scales with size.  Think of them as a creature with a natural weapon.  The size of the object is the size of the creature, the damage is based on the creature having that natural weapon at that size.

Honestly, I'm less concerned with damage scaling on spells as I am with area. The whole point of an area effect spell is that it can affect multiple targets, that's why area spells tend to be a higher level than a single target spell of comparable effect. But without scaling, you have titans and dragons creating spells that are needlessly inefficient. A fireball with a 20' radius burst is still a single target spell to a gargantuan or larger creature. It just offers a dex save for half rather than being a ranged touch attack. You don't see medium spellcasters creating many area spells that only effect a single 5-foot square, so why would larger beings do so? This leads to the implication that larger spellcasting races are either stupid (try calling a great wyrm that to it's face) or lazy, (again, good luck) copying spells from medium sized races without bothering to research versions that would be more practical for them.

I mean, you can always say "the gods (ie: the game designers) made all magic work this way, and the inherent medium-creature bias is just a fundamental property of the multiverse", but that just feels like excusing lazy and inconsistent world building to me.

"Judge me from a size, do you?"
I pledged to only judge by the math, never by the cover!

Magic is separate, and relates to the power of the caster rather than the size of the caster.  It makes sense that way to me.  I wouldn't want the small races to be utterly screwed on damage all the time for everything, nor would i want giants and dragons to do more magic damage from size when they already do more physical damage.
An RPG isn't about making sense, it's about following rules. How could we possibly teleport otherwise? Can you imagine the anatomic's horror of being a centaur? Have you consider that a centaur's brain, being the same as a regular human while having more body parts to manage, will have less room for potential, thus making invalid the "fact" that centaurs are wise?

Unless there's some biology splatbook I'm not aware of, we technically have no basis to assume that a centaur's central nervous system is anything like a regular human's. In fact it would make more sense if their internal physiology were radically different from both humans and horses, because how the hell would their cardiovascular and digestive systems work otherwise? :twitch

Besides, having less room for "potential" in their neural architecture would be more likely to limit Intelligence rather than Wisdom. Even a common bat has more wisdom than the average human commoner in pathfinder--or the average city guard, for that matter. :lmao

Consider that my "interesting find" for this post--and sorry for helping to derail what was a very interesting and potentially exploitable quirk of the RAW.

[edit]
Whoops, didn't saw you. Well, Dragons bother to cast AMF while the description stipulates that some parts of their body will be left out! That would also means that D or lesser creature are totally useless. That would also means that any alchemist can come to a pond, put the regular amount of reagents, create a ([lbs_pound]/[lbs_potion]) * [actual_bomb_dices] damage and then throw a monster in it, destroying its very core. I honestly thing that, at this point, even a god would be crushed by receiving an ocean of bomb in the face. Well, as a DM I would have a minute of silence for the poor boy. Can you imagine the weight of the Earth's ocean? Because I can't!
Ok, I did the math: it looks like there is 1.1*e(12) liter of water on Earth. A vial of potion (filled) is 1 lbs, while the same vial is considered 0 when empty. One liter of water is 1 kg = 2.2 lbs. So there is 1.1*e(12)*2.2 lbs of water. let's say the weight of the reagent is acceptably null.
With 1L of water, you can do 2.2 vials. So the total number of vials doable on Earth is: 2.2 * 1.1 * e(12) = 2.42 * e(12).
A lvl 20 alchemist does 1d6 + 10d6 by vials. If the damage scale you now have nd6 (I'm sorry, I have no data for a weapon of a size of 1.100 km long) + (2.42 * e(13))d6 damage!

See, that's the kind of internally consistent logic I like to see. How awesome would it be for adventurers to be hired to slay some giant because they keep trying to brew a potion in the local fishing hole?

Makes a great evil plot for your BBEG: An ancient dragon plans to use the town lake for his latest potion experiment!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 08:16:37 PM by MrWolfe »
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Offline deadkitten

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #811 on: November 29, 2015, 08:14:50 PM »
Quote
Big creatures and centered effects: If a Large or larger creature has up an effect “centered on you,” does that mean that sometimes the emanation doesn’t even affect the creature’s entire space, let alone anything else?

Answer: No, when a creature uses an emanation or burst with the text “centered on you,” treat the creature’s entire space as the spell’s point of origin, and measure the spell’s area or effect from the edges of the creature’s space. For instance, an antimagic field cast by a great wyrm red dragon would extend 10 feet beyond her 30x30 foot space, for a total of a 50 foot diameter.

From what it is worth about the spells and creature size discussion, they released a FAQ not too long ago.

Offline Mogkiller

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #812 on: November 30, 2015, 12:54:07 AM »
Quote
Big creatures and centered effects: If a Large or larger creature has up an effect “centered on you,” does that mean that sometimes the emanation doesn’t even affect the creature’s entire space, let alone anything else?

Answer: No, when a creature uses an emanation or burst with the text “centered on you,” treat the creature’s entire space as the spell’s point of origin, and measure the spell’s area or effect from the edges of the creature’s space. For instance, an antimagic field cast by a great wyrm red dragon would extend 10 feet beyond her 30x30 foot space, for a total of a 50 foot diameter.

From what it is worth about the spells and creature size discussion, they released a FAQ not too long ago.
Wooh, so the description in Way of the Wicked is wrong? Thanks for the intel!

Unless there's some biology splatbook I'm not aware of, we technically have no basis to assume that a centaur's central nervous system is anything like a regular human's. In fact it would make more sense if their internal physiology were radically different from both humans and horses, because how the hell would their cardiovascular and digestive systems work otherwise? :twitch
Well, this is based over the fact that a centaur is a human torso over a horse body. Alas, the theory isn't mine. I just happend to like it.

and sorry for helping to derail
You are right, I'm sorry. If anyone want to continue this conversation, I will gladly answer pm.

Offline Mogkiller

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #813 on: November 30, 2015, 01:18:21 AM »
While talking on Alchemist's bomb, have you noticed the Fire bomber's Fiery Cocktail?
It stipulates that :
"he can split the damage dice evenly between the bomb's primary damage type and 1d6 points of fire damage;" without limiting that to a bomb-based discovery.
Meaning it actually redefines the output of damage dices between your bomb and your bomb for any discovery dealing damages without your real bomb damage. Scrap Bomb will now do a lot more than 1 damage per die of bomb damage.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #814 on: November 30, 2015, 07:23:49 AM »
Quote
Big creatures and centered effects: If a Large or larger creature has up an effect “centered on you,” does that mean that sometimes the emanation doesn’t even affect the creature’s entire space, let alone anything else?

Answer: No, when a creature uses an emanation or burst with the text “centered on you,” treat the creature’s entire space as the spell’s point of origin, and measure the spell’s area or effect from the edges of the creature’s space. For instance, an antimagic field cast by a great wyrm red dragon would extend 10 feet beyond her 30x30 foot space, for a total of a 50 foot diameter.
From what it is worth about the spells and creature size discussion, they released a FAQ not too long ago.
That's awesome. It was one of the stupid rules quirks that always bugged me in 3.X.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #815 on: November 30, 2015, 05:36:58 PM »
- get a cleric, destruction domain in order to automaticly confirm your crits

Now, charge with your gore attack and land a crit threat that will be automaticly confirmed by the cleric. Transform your normal full-attack to an AoE with whirlwind attack.

Cleric 8 is a HUGE investment just for auto-confirmation. Using Disposable Weapon feat and repairing fragile weapons is MUCH more efficient.

What are you trying to do w the charge and full attack thing? I'm confused.
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #816 on: November 30, 2015, 05:54:24 PM »
Meaning that you can stack any kind of spells that doesn't provide bonuses "on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes" (hint, range is not an attribute, neither are evolution points). And that un-type bonuses stacks. By rules, you can overload your-self with courageous enhancement on any part you can over your body to get a lot of bonuses (if you have the money for it, that is).

Yeaaahhh..... no. It doesn't work that way.

Since 'attribute' doesn't have a game defition, you have to go to the normal definition. Reach is an attribute, evolutions are attributes, size is an attribute... the list goes on. You can't stack long arm reach with itself.

Quote
at·trib·ute
noun
ˈatrəˌbyo͞ot/
1.
a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.
"flexibility and mobility are the key attributes of our army"
synonyms:   quality, characteristic, trait, feature, element, aspect, property, sign, hallmark, mark, distinction; informalX factor
"he has all the attributes of a top player"
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Offline Mogkiller

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #817 on: November 30, 2015, 06:59:43 PM »
Yeaaahhh..... no. It doesn't work that way.

Since 'attribute' doesn't have a game defition, you have to go to the normal definition. Reach is an attribute, evolutions are attributes, size is an attribute... the list goes on. You can't stack long arm reach with itself.
Your point is interesting and most certainly valid. The only thing I could find is that in Getting Started, it is specified that "all attributes start at a base of 10", but it could be a simple mistake due to the fact they didn't want to repeat "his most basic attributes" once more.

That being said, if we consider every single characteristic of a character being an attribute we have to associate a type to the bonus granted. Since they don't have a defined type of bonus they are considered untyped, therefore they stack with themselves. You can then, by rules, overload yourself with the same effect.
"More generally, two bonuses of the same type don't stack even if they come from different spells"
"A bonus that doesn't have a type stacks with any bonus."
« Last Edit: November 30, 2015, 07:03:19 PM by Mogkiller »

Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #818 on: November 30, 2015, 10:56:32 PM »
My 5th printing Core has "Each character has six ability scores that represent his
character’s most basic attributes."
as the first line of the ability score section pg 15. Also, the next 3 or so mentions of "attribute" said basically the same thing.

The part you seem to be quoting was about purchasing ability points through the point buy system. It's obvious that they used attribute instead of ability score for the point purchase chunk.

---

Umm, they really fucked up the Dimensional Pit item from Black Markets...

Quote from:  page 21
The extradimensional pit persists for 1 minute before collapsing
(harmlessly expelling any trapped creatures into an adjacent
space) and becoming inert for 24 hours. If the command word
is spoken a second time, a portable pit transforms back into
cloth and can be picked up, moved, or stored.

The trapped creature's are only expelled when the pit collapses on its own, but you can command it to close up before then. Also, they failed to mention that items also pop out. They also failed to add that the pit ALSO goes inert if the command word is spoken before the 1 min mark. OOPS!

Great alternative Portable Hole for much cheaper.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2015, 12:49:25 AM by zook1shoe »
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Offline zook1shoe

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Re: Interesting stuff in Pathfinder
« Reply #819 on: December 03, 2015, 10:28:14 PM »
Legalistic curse allows you to roll off the charts on a d100 chart roll
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