Synthevolver [base] (Magipunk)

[Wrex]

Mechanosynth evolves seem a little on the iffy side. There are a few really good ones, and a lot of mediocre ones. All of the bypassing DR evolves, for instance. You could put all 5 of them together in a stage 1 evolve and no one would bat an eye. The Aluminum Flesh line is almost strictly inferior to Synthetic Mesh under normal hit die rules (with the way the rerolls work, you do wind up slightly ahead in hit points on average, but you lose out on everything else that a higher Con score can bring you).

Funnily enough, HP isn't even rolled in this setting, so that needs to be rewritten.

[sirpercival]

Mechanosynth evolves seem a little on the iffy side. There are a few really good ones, and a lot of mediocre ones. All of the bypassing DR evolves, for instance. You could put all 5 of them together in a stage 1 evolve and no one would bat an eye. The Aluminum Flesh line is almost strictly inferior to Synthetic Mesh under normal hit die rules (with the way the rerolls work, you do wind up slightly ahead in hit points on average, but you lose out on everything else that a higher Con score can bring you).

Unlike Bios, Mechs have very few evolves that aren't part of a chain. Other than the DR-bypassing evolves, there's exactly one stage 2+ Mech evolve that doesn't require a lower stage evolve first. Most of the Mech evolves (other than a fun few stage 1s) are just numerical upgrades, but Bio has a few more interesting ones.

Also, the extended planar shunt/phase disjunction have their effects mixed up. Might want to fix that.

I'll fix the mixed-up effects.  Any suggestions for the rest?

As Wrex said, in the game that I'm running in the setting (which may be different than how others run it), you get max hit points.

[Garryl]

I'd get rid of the Aluminum Flesh line (or at least change its effects). If you want more hit points, there's already a line of evolves designed primarily for that (Synthetic Mesh's +Con). The actual effect of the change in HD size is hard to estimate, varies by level, and depends in part on metagame choices (namely, the very common house rules regarding rolling for hit points).

As previously mentioned, the DR-bypassers can also move in to the same apartment and make a sitcom that people will watch. Bypassing DR is a specific but not entirely uncommon situation, but bypassing a specific type of DR is fairly niche. It's why Mountain Hammer (bypass all DR) and those augment crystals (bypass a specific type of DR and give bonuses against the creatures that typically have it, all for cheap) work, as does the golf bag (non-magical or lightly enchanted weapons made of special materials are surprisingly cheap). Since evolves are pretty significant, you can't just throw them away on such situational options.

Evolve ideas. I'm mostly focusing on Mech for now.
- Fortification
- Senses (how are there no scanners in there?)
- Alternate attack modes. Bio has 4 (tentacles, ooze/engulf, swarm, pheromones). Mech has, technically, 3, but they're all part of the armbolt chain so I have trouble counting them as more than 1. Either way, that's not enough. Let me bleed battery acid or something. Laser eyes! Shoulder-mounted auto-turrets! Maybe fire off some AMP (Anti-Magic Pulse) grenades?
- Some options for built-in activating (er, spellmolding), maybe? Such as giving some System feats out for evolves, maybe even the Activate Module/Socket Access feats? Probably not too much of it, though, or you start stepping on the toes of the actual activator classes and losing the original Synthevolver focus.
- Utility options. Bio has quite a few, but Mech is almost entirely combat-focused.

It would also be nice if there were a couple of final evolves that didn't have any prerequisites. Heck, some stage 2/3 evolves that don't have prerequisites. Bio has several 2s, but nobody has any 3s.

To support multiclassing and PrCing, I'd suggest using an "evolver level" or something (similar to caster level) instead of your raw Synth' level to determine the effects of level-dependent evolves.

Edit: Stabilizer needs a buff, badly.

[sirpercival]

OK, I made a bunch of changes to mechanosynth evolves.  Comments?

[Garryl]

Spikes and Blades need help. I can't think of many situations where they'd be relevant (zombies, several plants, and ropes). Stabilizer can also lose the high Fort save requirement (Diehard loses its luster soon enough, might as well let people use it while it's still good).

Will actually read through your changes at a later date.

[Garryl]

I don't like the Coordinated Mutagen feat. Initially, it's very weak and hard to set up. They have to have failed at least 2 Fort saves already before any penalty even applies, and by the time you have enough mutagens to make a difference, your opponent should already be out of the fight from nausea or paralysis already. It takes 3 failed Fort saves for the penalty to equal the +2 DC bonus from Ability Focus, and then you'd need to hit them with a 4th mutagenic strike for that penalty to take effect (which, by the way, requires you to be level 9). Since the penalties don't stack, the feat itself won't be of any benefit at all (barring ridiculously high HP opponents that take longer to finish than your mutagens last and still manage to have only average Fort saves) unless you have 3 mutagens to begin with, which doesn't happen until Weaken at 6th, not Sicken as the feat's prerequisites would imply. Maybe instead it could let you apply two mutagens on a single strike instead of one?

Blades and Spikes mech evolves should include a Slam attack in their prerequisites, should probably allow a Heal check to stop the pain/bleeding (otherwise only magic will fix it at a fast enough rate to be relevant; I think DC 20 is the standard for this sort of thing), and probably shouldn't function against non-living creatures.

[sirpercival]

Fixed.

[Jackinthegreen]

What's with the Evolution 0 stuff?  I.E. basic, simple, improved, etc.  Or does that refer to the Evo 0 getting size increases?  And I'm not sure if it's been asked, but if one takes the Armbolt evolve more than once does the damage boost get even bigger?  For example, would taking it twice by 4th level result in 3d6 damage total, or would it simply apply for each time taken so it'd be 2d8 if taken twice since 1d6 turns into 1d8?

[sirpercival]

What's with the Evolution 0 stuff?  I.E. basic, simple, improved, etc.  Or does that refer to the Evo 0 getting size increases?  And I'm not sure if it's been asked, but if one takes the Armbolt evolve more than once does the damage boost get even bigger?  For example, would taking it twice by 4th level result in 3d6 damage total, or would it simply apply for each time taken so it'd be 2d8 if taken twice since 1d6 turns into 1d8?

Yeah it's the size increases.

And, the ones you can take more than once say so.  Therefore, can't take Armbolt more than once.

[Jackinthegreen]

Ah, I see where I screwed up.  It looked like since it could be taken more than once for different kinds of energy damage, that the damage would stack.  But since it does have the wording "The armbolt's damage is divided evenly among all its energy types," then it wouldn't have extra damage.  I've got it straight now.

Now then, if you were to expand its skill list to be normal D&D skills, would you just have the skills themselves turn into the multiple skills they replace as per the skill revamp, or would you change some of them out?  For example, Animal Affinity might be there for Ride and not Handle Animal, so expanding the skill would actually nix HA but keep Ride?  Do you think it might be necessary to increase the skills to 6+Int if the skill list was expanded?

[sirpercival]

Ah, I see where I screwed up.  It looked like since it could be taken more than once for different kinds of energy damage, that the damage would stack.  But since it does have the wording "The armbolt's damage is divided evenly among all its energy types," then it wouldn't have extra damage.  I've got it straight now.

Got it. Yeah, I probably could have answered that more fully if I had actually read armbolt.  Lol.

Now then, if you were to expand its skill list to be normal D&D skills, would you just have the skills themselves turn into the multiple skills they replace as per the skill revamp, or would you change some of them out?  For example, Animal Affinity might be there for Ride and not Handle Animal, so expanding the skill would actually nix HA but keep Ride?  Do you think it might be necessary to increase the skills to 6+Int if the skill list was expanded?

The 3.5 skill list for Synthevolvers is Balance, Tumble, Handle Animal, Climb, Jump, Swim, Craft, Gather Information, Heal, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff, Disguise, Spot, Listen, Profession, Hide, Move Silently, and Sleight of Hand.  That's probably worthy of 6+Int, honestly.

[Garryl]

It's borderline between 4+ and 6+Int skill points. Monks (who probably have the most skills of the 4+Int classes, certainly in core) have 18 class skills, whereas the Synth has 19. 6+ Is probably a good idea, though, regardless. Monks aren't exactly known for having "enough" skill points.

[Jackinthegreen]

I got looking at the flight and maneuverability rules (DMG 20), and I think we have a problem.  It's mostly in the "up speed" part which says that a creature with average maneuverability can gain altitude at half its normal flight speed.  Pneumatic calves are base 5 feet though, so the mechanosynth effectively can't gain altitude except perhaps as a double move or full round action.  Is this intended?

The turning and minimum forward speed entries might also be problematic.  For average maneuverability, the minimum forward speed is 5 feet.  The turning entry says the creature can turn 45^o after moving 5 feet.  The turning in place entry says the creature can use 5 feet of its move speed to turn in place, which in this case means the creature has to have moved forward first before turning because of the minimum forward speed.

Do you think these problems warrant upping pneumatic calves to 10 feet base?

[sirpercival]

I think you should be able to gain altitude by taking a 5' step upward, right?  I'm just wary of giving out a functional fly speed at level 2, even if it is only 10 feet.

[Jackinthegreen]

You can't take a 5' step if your speed for that mode of movement is 5,' since that would require a move action.  The anthro toad from SS, for example, can't take 5' steps unless it gains a faster move than 5 feet.  The Rules Compendium clarified that on page 90, if you need an official reference.

And it's not even 5 feet up for average maneuverability since the entry oddly says the maximum angle up is 60^o (odd way to go about it if everything is a 5 foot cube) and that gaining altitude is at half speed, which is less than 5 feet and I don't think the rules cover that.  My only guess for it working with a 5 foot speed is that it'd either be a double move or a full-round action to gain altitude, and at a 60^o angle it'd need to move "up" 10 feet to move forward 5 feet to satisfy the minimum forward speed to stay airborne.

I think the maneuverability rules are why no creature has a 5 or even 10 foot flight speed unless it's good or perfect.

And as written it would be possible to make it faster than 5 feet anyway.  A lot of magical effects grant faster move speed for all the creature's movement modes.  Perhaps just for pneumatic calves make it perfect maneuv and 5 foot speed, and specify that no effect can increase this past 5 feet?

[Jackinthegreen]

Different topic than the evolution: skills.

I got looking at the examples given for knowledge (architecture and engineering) only to find that it is civil engineering and not mechanical.  Knowledge (arcana) covers constructs though, and every now and then constructs have mechanical parts.  Because of that and the magic infused into the evolves to make them work, perhaps the expanded skill list should include knowledge (arcana)?

Likewise, arcana looks like it could be used for Computer Use with PoC, yes?  Or would Craft be enough to work for either of these?

[VennDygrem]

So, I've got a couple questions (if anyone's still watching these threads!).

First, it's mentioned that your Evolution 0 attack form gains additional attacks at higher levels. How does this work with the attack progression? In a full-attack, do you make all attacks with the same weapon at the same attack bonus, or do extra attacks get treated as though they were secondary natural attacks, taking a -5 penalty? If the latter, does the -5 penalty stack with each successive bonus attack? Is a Mechanosynth's armblade treated as a natural attack despite being an existing manufactured weapon? I assume so given the basic, if not completely explicit, wording, and because then you'd have six weapon attacks at level 19 (which isn't exactly game-breaking in and of itself), or more with the right evolutions.

Also, while I understand this is all posted under a whole campaign setting and comprises a whole suite of classes, PrC's, items, feats, etc., it can be pulled into other D&D 3.5 settings easily; You've already mentioned above what the 3.5 class skills would be, but what about the Evolutions that grant a bonus to one of the Magipunk condensed skills? The Biosynth's Arm Membranes and Chameleon come to mind. Would they just grant bonuses to the component skills in that case? (A bonus to Jump for the former, and a bonus to all of Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, Disguise, and Intimidate for the latter?)

Oh, also, for Dispersion, the description says you "can separate into a swarm of tiny-sized creatures." Are you always a swarm, or can you reconstitute into a single body? Does it take an action to disperse? To do the opposite? Does it affect your attacks at all (evolution 0 or otherwise)? I suppose that mostly goes for Primordial Soup as well.

I love what I've read so far! I look forward to incorporating these materials into future characters.

[sirpercival]

So, I've got a couple questions (if anyone's still watching these threads!).

First, it's mentioned that your Evolution 0 attack form gains additional attacks at higher levels. How does this work with the attack progression? In a full-attack, do you make all attacks with the same weapon at the same attack bonus, or do extra attacks get treated as though they were secondary natural attacks, taking a -5 penalty? If the latter, does the -5 penalty stack with each successive bonus attack? Is a Mechanosynth's armblade treated as a natural attack despite being an existing manufactured weapon? I assume so given the basic, if not completely explicit, wording, and because then you'd have six weapon attacks at level 19 (which isn't exactly game-breaking in and of itself), or more with the right evolutions.

It's treated as an additional nat weapon attack -- getting, for example, 1 slam attack -> 2 slam attacks -> 3 slam attacks, etc.

Also, while I understand this is all posted under a whole campaign setting and comprises a whole suite of classes, PrC's, items, feats, etc., it can be pulled into other D&D 3.5 settings easily; You've already mentioned above what the 3.5 class skills would be, but what about the Evolutions that grant a bonus to one of the Magipunk condensed skills? The Biosynth's Arm Membranes and Chameleon come to mind. Would they just grant bonuses to the component skills in that case? (A bonus to Jump for the former, and a bonus to all of Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, Disguise, and Intimidate for the latter?)

Jump for the former, Hide and Disguise for the latter.

Oh, also, for Dispersion, the description says you "can separate into a swarm of tiny-sized creatures." Are you always a swarm, or can you reconstitute into a single body? Does it take an action to disperse? To do the opposite? Does it affect your attacks at all (evolution 0 or otherwise)? I suppose that mostly goes for Primordial Soup as well.

You can disperse or coalesce as a full-round action.

I love what I've read so far! I look forward to incorporating these materials into future characters.

[Garryl]

If it's like an extra natural attack, you'd better work on your wording (actually, better work on it anyways). If it's like an additional natural attack, that causes particular problems for armblade users. Do you need another weapon to attach, and does it take up yet another arm?

Speaking of armblade, you have a typo (" the mechanosynth gain a +2 bonus" should be "gains"), and that line should clarify that the +2 bonus is only when disarming with the armblade.

[VennDygrem]

See, that's where my confusion comes in. Additional attacks with the same natural weapon (one limb granting a slam, 4 attacks), or even multiple natural weapons of the same type (4 limbs capable of delivering a slam attack), are all made at the same attack bonus. I guess that's what I was asking about.

Also wondering how this interacts with Str bonus to damage. For instance, a bite would add 1.5 Str mod to damage if it's the only natural weapon. Technically, the same ought to apply to a slam, but a lot of times this is circumvented by having multiple slams treated as separate weapons and thus reducing it down to 1x Str mod. I can see how this affects the Armblade especially, considering my earlier question.

This all, of course, coming from the Monster Manual.