Synthevolver [base] (Magipunk)

[Sneaky_Sable]

I think the trick is it isn't supposed to be a fair comparison, to make each class appealing to the person looking to play it. Morphlings are like the Barbarians of the bunch. Massive super combat death dealers, who need to take a breather after they punch a guy to Mars. Their limits are based in exhaustion and limits of morphs per day. (Though, I haven't looked at the Morphling recently as of this comment, so this part may be moot.)

Synthevolver gets constant access to their chosen perks at all times, and is never exhausted from every using their powers and abilities. The trade is they're not as powerful, but then again, Morphling seems the primary damage, while this class seems more support structured to me. Morphlings increase their damage output, but synthevolvers can be far more versatile. You trade power for versatility.

[phaedrusxy]

I think the trick is it isn't supposed to be a fair comparison, to make each class appealing to the person looking to play it.

A level X pc should be pretty much equal to another level X pc, as far as combat effectiveness, regardless of class. Not even aiming for that result is bad design strategy...

Another way to put this: person A shouldn't be mechanically penalized for choosing a class that is a better fit descriptively for what they want to do, but is mechanically inferior to other class choices.

Can we please not debate that here, though? It is something way beyond the scope of a discussion thread about a specific class. I'm assuming SirPercival is shooting for all of these classes to be pretty much equal in terms of combat effectiveness (or tier). If not... well, he can chime in on that, and I will not further comment on how his classes seem to be balanced against each other.

Morphlings are like the Barbarians of the bunch. Massive super combat death dealers, who need to take a breather after they punch a guy to Mars. Their limits are based in exhaustion and limits of morphs per day. (Though, I haven't looked at the Morphling recently as of this comment, so this part may be moot.)

Their abilities are per encounter, not per day. So this is incorrect.

Synthevolver gets constant access to their chosen perks at all times, and is never exhausted from every using their powers and abilities. The trade is they're not as powerful, but then again, Morphling seems the primary damage, while this class seems more support structured to me. Morphlings increase their damage output, but synthevolvers can be far more versatile. You trade power for versatility.

I have no idea how you think having your choices be permanently fixed is more versatile than being able to change them spontaneously whenever you want. The morphling is much more versatile, as well as more powerful.

[Sneaky_Sable]

A level X pc should be pretty much equal to another level X pc, as far as combat effectiveness, regardless of class. Not even aiming for that result is bad design strategy...

Another way to put this: person A shouldn't be mechanically penalized for choosing a class that is a better fit descriptively for what they want to do, but is mechanically inferior to other class choices.

Have you considered that not every class is about combat?

Can we please not debate that here, though? It is something way beyond the scope of a discussion thread about a specific class. I'm assuming SirPercival is shooting for all of these classes to be pretty much equal in terms of combat effectiveness (or tier). If not... well, he can chime in on that, and I will not further comment on how his classes seem to be balanced against each other.

While I'm inclined to remind you that you seemed to love a good debate about three comments ago, instead I'll simply ask Where then should we discuss this? These are concerns of yours about this class. Where better to discuss and debate then here?

Their abilities are per encounter, not per day. So this is incorrect.

Thank you for the clarification. As stated, I hadn't looked at Morphling in quite a while, what with this class being more interesting to me then that. No offense to any.

I have no idea how you think having your choices be permanently fixed is more versatile than being able to change them spontaneously whenever you want. The morphling is much more versatile, as well as more powerful.

Can the Morphling boost non-combat stats? What is the Morphling limited to in so far as what they can obtain for short periods of time? Can a Morphling duplicate every ability, level for level, that a Synthevolver can? Also consider that most people who play a Morphling are probably going to have a single form they change into, optimized for how they want to run the character, tweaking it as they gain levels. Essentially the same as anyone playing a Synthevolver.

It's true that a Morphling can have a Running Form and a Flying Form and a Burrowing Form and a Breath Underwater To Catch Fish form, but outside of combat movement rates are moot. You can fly to that building top? Nice, snap me a holo of the view and then come back down to the rest of the party. You can burrow to the earth's core and soak in magma? Bring me back some obsidian. It'll look great in this outfit.

Combat perks only matter in combat. If the campaign is more driven by role playing instead of roll playing, you're just the fifteen foot tall rhinoceros-man in the corner cracking his knuckles for the entire game.

[phaedrusxy]

Have you considered that not every class is about combat?

<SNIP>

While I'm inclined to remind you that you seemed to love a good debate about three comments ago, instead I'll simply ask Where then should we discuss this? These are concerns of yours about this class. Where better to discuss and debate then here?

This is more about the theory behind class design than the specifics of an individual class. I'm not sure if such a thread already exists on this forum (it probably does, and I've certainly seen it discussed at length at the gaming den). If not, we/you could start one.

Combat perks only matter in combat. If the campaign is more driven by role playing instead of roll playing, you're just the fifteen foot tall rhinoceros-man in the corner cracking his knuckles for the entire game.

So... it's roll-playing vs. role-playing, is it?

The mechanics of the D&D game are mostly about combat. Classes are defined by their mechanics. So really... we only care about combat when discussing class balance. Or more specifically we care about solving encounters, which includes puzzles, traps, etc. Anything unrelated to solving encounters is not actually done within the gaming system. It's basically just ad-hoc roleplaying. And so the mechanics don't matter at all.

So yeah, I'm only really looking at the capacity to solve encounters, which are usually mostly about combat, because that's about all that the D&D ruleset covers. The other "mini-games" in D&D are generally terrible (crafting, social skills, recon, etc) and can usually be wholly circumvented by magic, anyway (Charm, Open Lock, Fly vs. climb/jump, Invisibility + Silence vs. Hide + Move Silently, and so on). So they're not even worth considering when discussing class balance. Since this is for a derivative system that won't include the core casting classes, and which has a revamped skill system, this might not be quite the case here. But in "normal" D&D, it is.

[sirpercival]

While I like to see a spirited debate, I'm going to step in here.

In terms of the name, I'm considering all points.  I understand where you're coming from, Phae, in terms of making it more palatable to those who know more real science than pseudoscience; I get slightly put off by pseudo-physics when I encounter it in a setting like this.  However, the name was tied into my concept of the class from the very beginning, so I'm still deciding if it's inextricable.

EDIT -- OK, here goes:

Sable, in terms of combat versus non-combat... you know that I like my games to have a very healthy mix of both.  What that means is that I don't want to have a class that's hamstrung in terms of contributing in one of those areas.  I know that when I play a class and it's useless in combat OR in non-combat, I feel frustrated... which is why I tend to build my characters (and try to design my homebrew) to enable prowess in both areas.

Phae, yes in general I want things to be near each other.  However, that's just not going to happen all the time when you have a tier 1 class (crystal mage) in the mix with non-casters like morphling, dodger, and this one.  The real question is not "is morphling better at combat than this class?", it's "does morphling make this class irrelevant in any given situation?"

I doubt the answer to that is clear.  A cleric can make a fighter irrelevant because the fighter is crippled enough to suck at his own area of expertise compared to a full caster.  A druid can make a fighter irrelevant because not only is he a full caster, he gets a bonus fighter as a class feature.  But does a barbarian make a fighter irrelevant?  Well, no, not exactly, even though their foci are quite similar.  Certainly in terms of roleplaying,  the synthewhatever and morphling are very different, but that's not the issue in question, it's a matter of mechanics. 

SOOOO... let's compare.  At level 10, a morphling can turn into a Large giant and has a +4 bonus to strength, or can give himself a few natural attacks at +1 die size.  Plus he'll be able to throw rocks.  At level 10, a mechanosynth (for example) will have an armbolt that does 2 attacks for 3d6 sonic damage each.  And maybe an armgrenade that gets all explodey.

I think they're pretty equal at that point, with maybe advantage mechanosynth.

At level 20, the morphling can turn into a large dragon and get a crapload of attacks with morphic flurry, can grab pounce, and can give himself some tentacle attacks as well (with increased die sizes), plus he has frightful presence.  The same mechanosynth can have an army's worth of hp, or can have DR 30/-- (severely reducing the damage he takes from all those natural attacks), or can have a 3x chance of SoL against a single opponent (like the morphling) attacking all 3 saves.  And, he gets 4 attacks with his armbolt that do something like 6d6 or 12d6 damage base.  (If he were a biosynth he could just regen all the damage the morphling could do, or dominate monster everything w/in 10 feet). 

Again I call it pretty much a push, though the biosynth is definitely less of a combatant than a morphling or mechanosynth.

Thoughts?  Do you calculate differently?

[Sneaky_Sable]

Yes, it is Roll Playing over Role Playing. Your character should be a character, not just a bunch of numbers with a name and an alignment. Your character should be more then just a base attack bonus and a number next to 'damage'. Decisions you make should be from the character's point of view, not because the player knows that it's more advantageous for them to take a few levels of fighter.

Okay, so speaking purely on combat, and not looking into any of the other aspects of a class, then the Morphling is a superior combatant then the Synthevolver.

Let's take a look at both of these classes at 20th level, where a Morphling can become any creature in the Monstrous Manuel, but there's a good chance that 20th level Synthevolver will ignore any energy damage (Rendering dragon types useless, not to mention certain high damage elementals), or simply cannot die, or has an armor class beyond your ability to hit, or has a "Fort save or Die" ability. Though, that's their 20th level progression, and at that point, the Morphling's ability to become anything in the monstrous manual can imitate some of those features, but perhaps not all.

Raw numbers, the Morphling has the advantage of manipulating their type, gaining essentially every perk that a Druid with Wild Shape has over the other members of their party. It's the balance of "Synthevolvers constantly have access to their chosen talents, without exception, while Morphlings need to expend morph points to gain access to their more powerful chosen talents". It's the "Fireball Three times a day" vs. "Burning Hands At Will" discussion. Reliable lower damage vs sporadic higher damage.

At the end of the day, when the morphling is out of morph points, he's just a guy. Normal and meek. No fortification, no fast healing, no immunities. The Synthevolver never loses access to their perks.

[sirpercival]

That's not quite true -- the Morphling gets MP per encounter, not per day, so he won't run out in a given day, but might in a given encounter, if he uses them unwisely.  However, the duration of a morph is pretty long at high levels.

I'm addressing the combat mechanics in the above post.

[Sneaky_Sable]

I had a question or two, but I'm retracting them. Phae and I just see classes differently, and no amount of discussion either way will alter either of our perceptions. Rather then bicker into eternity, let us let Percival make whatever system changes to either class he sees as necessary, and then we can re-evaluate from there.

[phaedrusxy]

Wouldn't it make more sense for Dispersion to grant them the swarm subtype, rather than incorporeal? It might not be simpler to implement, nor more powerful (incorporeal is definitely more powerful), but it might be more interesting, and makes more sense to me...  I suspect mechanosynth is a bit better than biosynth at the moment, anyway.

[Sneaky_Sable]

I'd think that the swarm subtype may make more sense for the Biosynth to gain, and the Mechanosynth keeps Incorporeal.

Essentially, the flavor is the Biosynth just breaks themselves into parts (Hands, feet... think "The Thing")

[phaedrusxy]

I'd think that the swarm subtype may make more sense for the Biosynth to gain, and the Mechanosynth keeps Incorporeal.

Essentially, the flavor is the Biosynth just breaks themselves into parts (Hands, feet... think "The Thing")

I don't really see how incorporeal makes sense for either of them... They're all about manipulating their physical bodies, not spirits, right? Incorporeal creatures don't have a physical body.

I was thinking it would work exactly as you're saying for the mechanosynth, though. The mechanosynth is basically a cyborg, right? I was thinking it could break apart into pieces (hands, forearms, etc) as a swarm composed of tiny-sized "creatures" which are still communicating "wirelessly" with each other. This would let it move through places too big for it normally to fit into, and you could even let it keep using its arm-blaster/laser/etc in this form. Maybe as an upgrade, it can turn into a fine-sized swarm (which is immune to weapon damage). Give it a swarm attack, but have it loses its slam/armblade while in swarm form.

[Sneaky_Sable]

Right, so they're taking their physical bodies and partially displacing it into a bordering reality. (See also: Planeswalker)

It isn't their spirit. Incorporeal has nothing to do with spirits, except that spiritual creatures are usually incorporeal.

[phaedrusxy]

Right, so they're taking their physical bodies and partially displacing it into a bordering reality. (See also: Planeswalker)

That would be going Ethereal.

It isn't their spirit. Incorporeal has nothing to do with spirits, except that spiritual creatures are usually incorporeal.

Spectres, wraiths, and a few other creatures lack physical bodies. Such creatures are insubstantial and can’t be touched by nonmagical matter or energy. Likewise, they cannot manipulate objects or exert physical force on objects. However, incorporeal beings have a tangible presence that sometimes seems like a physical attack against a corporeal creature.

Incorporeal creatures are present on the same plane as the characters, and characters have some chance to affect them.

Incorporeal means they have no physical body, not that they're on another plane. A manifested ghost is physically on another plane (the Ethereal), but has an incorporeal presence on the material plane. His/her physical body is actually on the ethereal, though (and can be interacted with normally there).


If you wanted to say that the mechanosynth can become ethereal for a short time per day, as per the Ethereal Jaunt spell, that wold be cool, though.

[Sneaky_Sable]

I'm providing theatrical justifications for the power as written, and you're countering with book rules. Mechanically, you're right, because I'm not arguing the mechanics.

Oh, and except for all those incorporeal creatures that also partially exist on the Ethereal plane, such as ghosts, you're right about incorporeal creatures. (Though, as of Libre Mortis, this is no longer the case.)

They aren't going ethereal, since you can still see them, and creatures on the Ethereal plane are invisible to the Prime, so etherealness is right out. Which leaves incorporeal.

It's nice that you gravitated towards the spirits that have the incorporeal subtype, despite my stating that it has nothing to do with spirits in and of itself. Spiritual creatures tend to have it, but it isn't a requirement of the Incorporeal subtype. NOW... I'm arguing mechanics.

[phaedrusxy]

What I countered with is a quote from the Incorporeal Subtype description. So blame the writers about the fact that it talks about "spirit creatures".

And as far as I know, ghosts work exactly as I stated. They are on the ethereal plane, but have special rules while manifesting which makes them incorporeal as well. I don't remember if LM changes how this works.

I don't actually want to get into another argument... so...

Here are some ideas I had further along these lines:

Biosynth powers:

Swarm: Your body parts can separate into a swarm of tiny-sized creatures. You gain the swarm subtype, but lose any flight speed that you might have had.

Advanced Swarm: You can split yourself into even smaller parts. You gain the swarm subtype, but your individual parts are now tiny sized, and so are immune to weapon damage. You lose access to your evolution 0 natural attack while in this form, but gain a swarm attack which does 1d6 damage and nauseates any creatures that fail a Fort save. If you have a poison, it is also delivered via the Swarm attack.

Primordial Soup (Evolve 2): You can revert yourself to a more primitive form. You type changes to ooze. You Evolution 0 natural attack becomes a slam instead of a bite or claw, and you gain the engulf ability.

Improved Primordial Soup (Evolve 3): Anyone engulfed by your ooze form or hit by your slam attack must make a Fort save or be paralyzed.

Super Soup (Final Evolve): You gain the split ability of a black pudding.

Mechanosynth powers:
Planar Shunt: As a standard action, you can become Ethereal (as per Ethereal Jaunt) for a number of rounds per day equal to your Synthevolver level. You may split these rounds up however you want. Returning to the Material Plane requires a move action.

Extended Planar Shunt: The duration of your Planar Shunt increases to 1 minute per level, but you can still split it up however you want, with a minimum duration of 1 round.

Rapid Planar Shunt: You can activate your Planar Shunt ability as an immediate action. Returning to the Material Plane now can be done as a free action.


Justification
This gives the biosynth some cool powers that are useable in combat, and gives the mechanosynth some out-of-combat utility (scouting, going through walls, etc), with the later level being a useful defense for avoiding attacks as well.

[Sneaky_Sable]

And that's the odd part, cause there are a bunch of non-undead incorporeal creatures, and I know Libre Mortis screwed around with a lot of the 'accepted' norms of templates and types and such.

For what it's worth, I don't like to argue but I love a well thought out debate. If that makes sense.

I really like the descriptions and the thought you put behind this wording and this spread of the bio / mechano- synth power structure. You struck me as something of a bottom line efficiency-head, so this is pretty good. Please, take that as a compliment, as it was intended as such.

A few nitpicks, but relax, I'll be gentle.

Is the "Swarm" ability an Evolution 0, or was "Advanced Swarm" meant to be like a feat or something? Otherwise you have two Evolution I traits for Swarm types.

I'd write in that if you have poison or phermones, they affect any who you engulf as under Primordial Soup or Adv. Primordial Soup.

Going ethereal to scout is only 'kinda' good. Sure you can walk through 99.999% of the game, and are immune to just about that much, but the Prime, when viewed through the Border Ethereal, is vague and blurry. You can make out generalizations, but I don't know if it'd be clear enough for detailed scouting. I also don't think audio information carries across the border, so what you'd have is:

<Guy> So what did you see?
<You> A gathering of pudding elementals gesturing silently in an entire room decorated like an oil painting.
<Guy> ...

[phaedrusxy]

I really like the descriptions and the thought you put behind this wording and this spread of the bio / mechano- synth power structure. You struck me as something of a bottom line efficiency-head, so this is pretty good. Please, take that as a compliment, as it was intended as such.

Thanks. 

A few nitpicks, but relax, I'll be gentle.

Is the "Swarm" ability an Evolution 0, or was "Advanced Swarm" meant to be like a feat or something? Otherwise you have two Evolution I traits for Swarm types.

The swarms were supposed to be two different levels of abilities, either I and II or II and III, depending on what power level Percival thinks is appropriate.

I'd write in that if you have poison or phermones, they affect any who you engulf as under Primordial Soup or Adv. Primordial Soup.

Good idea, especially with the poison. Pheromones? That seems a bit... odd. 

Going ethereal to scout is only 'kinda' good. Sure you can walk through 99.999% of the game, and are immune to just about that much, but the Prime, when viewed through the Border Ethereal, is vague and blurry. You can make out generalizations, but I don't know if it'd be clear enough for detailed scouting. I also don't think audio information carries across the border, so what you'd have is:

<Guy> So what did you see?
<You> A gathering of pudding elementals gesturing silently in an entire room decorated like an oil painting.
<Guy> ...

Eh, yeah, it has limitations, but it's still pretty good. Unlike the biosynths, I don't think the mechanosynths get much in the way of stealth abilities, do they?

[Sneaky_Sable]

Good idea, especially with the poison. Pheromones? That seems a bit... odd. 

So is transforming into a puddle Though, when a biosynth with the Pheromone evolve engulfs you, you're pretty much surrounded by the source of said pheromones.

Going ethereal to scout is only 'kinda' goEh, yeah, it has limitations, but it's still pretty good. Unlike the biosynths, I don't think the mechanosynths get much in the way of stealth abilities, do they?

Sure they do: Armbolt and Armgrenade. No witnesses means a perfect stealth. Though judging from the rest of the build, the Mechanosynths didn't seem to be built towards being stealthy. They're kinda like d20 Abrams Tanks, and they aren't built to tippy-toe around the enemy. If nothing else, the Mechanosynth can claim partial cover from the building they destroy.

Though, slightly more serious, the Mechanosynth's role doesn't seem to be "Stealth Fighter", but potentially "Frontline Tank". The prospect of building your own class via the Evolves does lead one to believe that they can be anything you want them to be, but there are some things that they just shouldn't be. "Quiet" is one of those things.

[sirpercival]

You guys always get going when I'm commuting for 2 hrs, so I can't participate.    

For the incorporeal thing, I had done that at the suggestion of littha, who said either incorporeal or ethereal.  I didn't think about it too much, and since I hadn't decided where the Ethereal Plane fit into the cosmology, I went with incorporeal. 

But reading this, Phae your mind went basically where mine did, so I'm going to use your ideas.  However, I may keep the incorporeal thing and call it "Phase Disjunction" or something similarly awesome!

[Sneaky_Sable]

You guys always get going when I'm commuting for 2 hrs, so I can't participate.

And who's fault is that?