Author Topic: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)  (Read 6690 times)

Offline BrianTheBrain

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Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« on: December 30, 2011, 03:47:52 AM »
I've been reading up on how to scare players from various sources, everything from genre specific stuff like Heroes of Horror and Book of Vile Darkness to some high minded stuff like the ideas of symbolism from the likes of Joseph Cambell. I've read stuff on the self, the uncanny, and the other; things about the shadow between our self image and our actual self and how it can scare people. I've pulled up monsters and invented scenarios that hold up mirrors to, and take advantage of, the flaws and insecurities of the PCs (and their players). However, I keep coming to the same problem: the true meat of a set piece or module is the battle, so the focus of a session is going to be on them, but this gets in the way of the unknown, one of horrors key principles. In horror less is more, the player can scare themselves better than I can. So, keeping the mystery up is key to scaring them. In the climactic battle, the monster is forced to reveal itself, and, a few knowledge checks later, the PCs know everything they need to know about it and it turns into just another boss battle.
Does any one know how one can get around this problem? How one can truly scare a player?
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Offline veekie

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2011, 04:55:29 AM »
Once in combat, the problem is condensed into a manageable situation, that they can solve with known means. Most commonly, the trick is to restrict perception, using low lighting, illusions, obscured visions and diversions to ensure they're fighting anything but the main source of the horror. Have the horror be the environment itself, and the things they fight like its cells or components.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2011, 04:30:36 PM »
When the players are talking, take a book and slam it on the table loudly (but don't let them see you do it). Then start the encounter.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2011, 05:56:04 PM »
Shock factor only works a few times though. Good dread lasts forever.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2011, 07:29:18 PM »
Ask for Fortitude and Will saves every now and then.  Randomly.  Record the results, and make "Hmm" and "Tch" noises, but don't say anything else.  If they ask, tell them that they'll find out later.

Have spells and powers start having odd visual side-effects.  That intensify as the campaign goes on.  Nothing rules-based, just fluff.  If you go ahead with the above idea, you can increase the frequency of those saves whenever anyone casts a spell or manifests a power.

Don't try to freak them out with your behavior--everyone knows what a grinning DM means, and they're used to it.  Instead, worry them with things that are happening in-game that they don't understand.

Another fun thing that you can do with descriptions: When describing something horrifying, don't have a prepared speech.  Instead, try to describe it like you're desperately trying to make sense of what you're seeing.  Try to evoke the feeling of nameless horror, rather than trying to paint a detailed picture that horrifies.

Quote
The...eyes.  Gods, the eyes.  You...you aren't sure, but you think that you can see yourself in them...no, don't look.  Don't look.  Oh gods, though, the body...it's...is it pulsating?  No, no, that's...that's just it moving.  The...the legs.  They...don't bend properly.  The joint...keeps moving.  Almost like they're not legs, but they're trying to be legs, but that doesn't make SENSE.

versus

Quote
The beast glares at you with large, iridescent eyes that seem to contain your whole world.  You feel yourself drawn in, and you desperately look away...only to find yourself sickened by the heaving, quivering movement of its body.  As it rears up on two tentacles, you feel a wave of cold dread wash over you.

Also, to deal with the Knowledge checks problem, you could build creatures out of simple bases and numerous templates.  Now, I'm not sure on the rules of Knowledge checks and templates, but I would play it that each template that would fall under a different Knowledge skill would require a different Knowledge check.  A Knowledge (nature) check might tell them that the thing used to be a bear, but they'll need to make a few more checks to understand what the hell it is now.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline BrianTheBrain

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2011, 10:15:50 PM »

Also, to deal with the Knowledge checks problem, you could build creatures out of simple bases and numerous templates.  Now, I'm not sure on the rules of Knowledge checks and templates, but I would play it that each template that would fall under a different Knowledge skill would require a different Knowledge check.  A Knowledge (nature) check might tell them that the thing used to be a bear, but they'll need to make a few more checks to understand what the hell it is now.
The problem is I have a bard who's using bardic knack from PHB2 and Jack of All Trades from Complete Scoundrel to justify huge checks in every skill, including knowledge.

I like all the other suggestions, though.
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Offline NunoM

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2011, 11:02:56 PM »
One thing that always keeps me on edge as a PC is a random call of Spot or Listen, especially when the party is journeying through unknown territory. Whoever rolls the dice, the whole table stops talking until the DM says something...

Offline GMarshal

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2012, 11:10:47 AM »

Also, to deal with the Knowledge checks problem, you could build creatures out of simple bases and numerous templates.  Now, I'm not sure on the rules of Knowledge checks and templates, but I would play it that each template that would fall under a different Knowledge skill would require a different Knowledge check.  A Knowledge (nature) check might tell them that the thing used to be a bear, but they'll need to make a few more checks to understand what the hell it is now.
The problem is I have a bard who's using bardic knack from PHB2 and Jack of All Trades from Complete Scoundrel to justify huge checks in every skill, including knowledge.

I like all the other suggestions, though.
Its horror, there are unknown terrors that no one knows about, simple as that, he can roll as high as he wants, but if no one has survived seeing it before then your knowledge skill is worthless.

As far as horror goes, perceptions are key, mess with how they perceive things, make them doubt their own senses, have them be attacked by a "ghoul" only to discover after they've hacked it to pieces that it was a villager cloaked in illusion and controlled by some puppetmaster.

Have a"threat" emerge from the shadows, and pick off a mount or cohort and then vanish. Make the PCs not always be fully in control of their actions, have random spots of memory vanish from their memories, for example, if they are heading towards the temple at noon, make them find themselves suddenly at the tavern, several hours later with no idea how they got there or what happened.

Players revile being in control and having information, if you attack that at its very core, the sense of the players, they'll quickly begin to fear what might happen.

Offline Exileman

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2012, 01:27:17 PM »
Horror games are an excellant time to use a soundtrack.  Make a custom cd (or computer playlist) with a fair number of "tracks".  Include random scratching noises, audible gusts of wind, a muffled scream, the like.  Have a few sounds be "trigger's".  The triggers should be startling and distinctive.  When these noise's play, encounter.  Put your player on random.  Then even YOU don't know when they're going to be attacked.  Make a second cd (or computer playlist), play it at the same time, of just low spooky music.  This should really create an air of creepy and suprise.  I'd recomend having your encounters rolled up and ready in order so that the music effect is IMMEDIATE.  Hell, have several prerolled initiatives so that you have the turn order ready. 

*female bloodcurdling scream* Eric you take 4 damage in the suprise round. Jeff, your up you see a shadowy figure drooling blood almost 20 feet away.  what do you do?

You might create action time limits.  You have 20 seconds to act or i move on.  Use everything you can to keep them guessing.  Monsters don't fight to the death, some do.  Guerilla tactics.

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2012, 01:39:53 PM »
Shock factor only works a few times though. Good dread lasts forever.
Heroes of Horror gets into different types of fear, including shock and dread. Maintaining the mood and pacing throughout each session is key, but hard to sustain.


Also, to deal with the Knowledge checks problem, you could build creatures out of simple bases and numerous templates.  Now, I'm not sure on the rules of Knowledge checks and templates, but I would play it that each template that would fall under a different Knowledge skill would require a different Knowledge check.  A Knowledge (nature) check might tell them that the thing used to be a bear, but they'll need to make a few more checks to understand what the hell it is now.
Honestly, if you're starting a horror campaign, it might be best to modify a few rules up front and let everyone know. Trying to plug this into an existing campaign makes things more tricky.

Since so much of good horror comes from the unknown, you might either want to change how Knowledge checks work, or remove certain creature types from the knowledge checks. For example: say that aberrations and undead are central to your campaign. You could remove them from Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and (Religion) respectively and not allow PCs to make knowledge checks on them because they're simply too rare/new/unknown/alien to have any prior knowledge to draw from.
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Offline Nachofan99

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2012, 10:16:06 PM »
Just make sure to tell the bard that "Oh you recognize this.  This is the monster from that one story, you know, the one about the monster that forced the mother to eat her child and THEN ate the mother - all while making the father watch.  Yeah that monster.  The one that is said to be nigh invulnerable and slew an army.  (to steal what DonQ said)  Yeah that monster, the one that used to be a bear but is god knows what now.  Yeah there was a story that said it's vulnerable to fire and that they burned it to death...but it's here, right in front of you.  You trust that story?"

Offline bhu

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2012, 11:23:27 PM »
Does any one know how one can get around this problem? How one can truly scare a player?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigLippedAlligatorMoment

do a creepy version of this trope. 

Offline Kajhera

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2012, 07:04:33 AM »
Assault them with Meenlocks. Or at least look at how those guys fight.

Offline kurashu

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2012, 03:18:40 PM »
When the players are talking, take a book and slam it on the table loudly (but don't let them see you do it). Then start the encounter.

Double check that you aren't playing on a glass tabletop. Or maybe that'd make it all the better.

One thing I did in my last campaign, I started them off in the Howling Horde but changed the Moradin temple to one of Tharizdun. At the beginning of the quest, they found that the entrance to the cave was laced with a black material they were able to identify as foreign to the area. I stressed the covering of the Shaman's room looked like it had been stitched together from an old, purple robe.

The sanctuary was the last thing they explored -- after killing the dragon, the goblins, the hobgoblins. They stopped at the door before a break and everyone went to smoke but me (I had to usher one of the other players out) and quickly formulated a plan. When they came back in, I was standing by the light switch and had turned off the lights in the rooms surrounding and spoke in a slow and quiet and authoritative voice. I'm typing this from memory, so some details are probably wrong.

"Do you go in?"
"Yes."
"As you remove the bar and slowly swing the heavy wood doors open, a wave of cold washes over you and then nothing." *lights off*
"What happened?"
"It's too dark to see."
"I'm a dwarf, do I see anything?"
"It's too dark to see."
"Uh-oh. What about the microwave (speaking of the Warforged Pally)? Can he see?"
"Barely. It's still too dark for Ward to make anything out."
"Well...let's light torches?"
"Alright."
"The torches glow brightly and then dim, almost to embers but you can make out what's in front of you for a few feet. Elves, dwarf and warforged can see almost six feet in front of you. As you collect your senses, it is deathly cold and you hear the slow drip of water. Drip. Drip. Drip. Drip." I continued the drips until the party found what caused it, stopping only answer questions or provide exposition.
"Let's make search checks." *rolls* I inform them that they can take a twenty if its a trained skill with ranks.
"You find that the room is about forty by forty feet. It seems carved from black stone, not constructed. Several rows of pews line the floor but have rotted from age. As you walk, dust plumes into the air. At the farside, it tapers into small, raised alcove with a pedestal that seems to raise up from the black stone. At each corner there is a statue that has been smashed. Along side the wall with the door, a cistern lies smashed and the slow drip of water comes from there."
"Uh-oh. Well, let's loot. Keep a look out for monsters, shadows and ghosts." *rolls*
"The next thing you notice about the room is, starting from the center of the floor, there is a spiral engraved. When it meets the walls, it seems to circle upwards to the ceiling, slowly, before becoming a proper spiral and ending in the center of the circle." *I began drawing a spiral on the map with a marker and didn't stop until one of the players noticed and mentioned it was kinda creepy.*
"That's not good. Is there anything else?"
"Each statue seems to be made out of a different colored stone, one red, blue, green, purple. *The warforged states he grabs a piece of each individual state* Inside the blue one is a iron triangular prism that seems to be made out of silver. It is about six inches in length."
"I grab it."
*smirk* "When you grab it, your soul feels chilled and you take *roll* 3 points of cold damage."
"At least I have cold resistance."
"No, you don't understand. You take 3 points of cold damage."
"Microwave, you want to give it a shot?"
"Alright, I grab it."
I mull this over quickly, but my warforged character has said he specifically wanted no soul and that was his quest. "You touch and hesitate for a second, but nothing happens as you lift it out of the rubble. You can tell it is cold, possibility the coldest thing you've ever touched."
"Odd. Is there any frost or anything on it?"
"No."
"I dip it in the cistern."
"As you push it in and pull it out, *a small "That's what she said" aside* the water beads aimlessly off of it."
"No frost?"
"Nope."
"Odd. Is there anything else?"
"The pedestal, when searched, has a small triangular hole in its base."
"I bet this thing is a key. Let's try it."
"When you place the prism inside the hole, you hear a small click."
"We turn it. Does anything open?"
"A compartment, previously unnoticed even by dwarf eyes, pops open. Inside is a scroll, a robe, a pendant and a knife."
"What does the scroll say?"
*I read the same text included with Howling Horde with the necessary adjustments*
"Creepy. What does the robe and pendant look like?"
"The robe is deep, lustrous purple. It has a high cowl and a hood. If you could imagine a gay KKK member." *laughs* Sometimes easing up on tension creates a more profound impact when you deliver your next punch. "The pendant is that of Pelor's but black. Blacker even than the stone you stand on."
Warforged: "Obviously, this is a thing of evil. I make a knowledge religion check." *rolls*
"You've heard of a symbol like this, but nothing substantial in your studies. But you are sure of your assumption of evil."
*there is a small debate of what to do before a player makes a decision*
The tiefling (of course): "Well, I put on the robe."
"You don't feel the cold anymore. In fact, you're rather comfortable."
"Awesome. I cast detect magic."
"There is nothing magic in this room, other than some of your group's possessions."
"But the robe?"
"Mundane."
"I put the pendant on, too."
"It feels heavy, probably more than it should be."
"Alright...I grab the dagger, too."
"You feel alright. Make a will save for me."
"..." *roll* Honestly, I didn't care about the result. Rolls, especially when the cause isn't given, add tension.
While, he was rolling, I pulled out my phone, something I usually don't do. Between that and the fact it was still dark, my players took notice and my girlfriend gave me a scowl for breaking my own rule. I sent my tiefling player a text, something along the lines of "As you grab the dagger, you notice an inversed ziggarut blaze at the base of the blade and then fade. A single word rocks your mind, 'Tharizdun.' But otherwise you are fine." However, he rolled pretty low on his will save so I had an idea pop into my mind afterwards. He asked if it was okay if he read the text aloud, I said it was his to share.
"Tharzidun."
Warforged: "Huh? I make another check." *rolls high for K(R)*
"You've heard this name whispered but only in the brightest of locations and only between elderly Pelorites. It is a name of outstanding evil and destruction."
"Dude, you need to take that stuff off and give it to me."
"Alright. I take off the pendant and the-"
"When you remove the pendant and Ward takes it from you, you feel hollow. As if everything you've ever desired is that pendant. You need it back."
"...Microwave, maybe I should hold on to it."
"No."
"Why not? I'm fine. I just need my precious...I mean..."
"Yeah, you're not getting it back now."
"I'll gut you of your wires and parts!"

At this point I had officially driven a wedge between the characters. One person took up for the tiefling, saying that the group could deal with it later. the others restrained the two and threatened to knock out the Tiefling and tie up the Warforged.

There was other small talk and debate that night. But the drama hung heavy for the rest of the campaign. The players made sure the other one was actually upset. They found a priest of Pelor who said he did not feel comfortable handling the symbol but directed them to someone he knew who could. The campaign ended before we got to that point, or anything else involving Tharzidun. Sadly. :(

Offline BrianTheBrain

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2012, 12:46:34 AM »
Does any one know how one can get around this problem? How one can truly scare a player?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BigLippedAlligatorMoment

do a creepy version of this trope.
What, with the random song and everything? because I already tried a singing Bone Yard and no one enjoyed it.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 03:03:12 AM by BrianTheBrain »
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Offline RedWarlock

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2012, 01:25:56 AM »
kurashu, that was awesome! I love that kind of stuff.
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Offline BrianTheBrain

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2012, 03:01:05 AM »
I have discovered that my players freak out over the uncanny. Specifically, faceless humanoids.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 03:05:42 AM by BrianTheBrain »
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Offline PipTheBlue

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #17 on: January 10, 2012, 06:29:28 AM »
I would like to point out this particular thread on the old forums: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11576.0
There's a lot of cool ideas in there.

Offline Bloody Initiate

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2012, 09:28:29 AM »
Lots of good ideas in this thread. Want to make a point:

You have to have players who can be scared, it's not in every player's repertoire of responses. Actually one of the most annoying things I can think of is DMs trying to do horror campaigns. You either have players who will be frightened by the narrative, or you don't, and no amount of good story telling will ever overcome that.

The other ideas about screwing with them with the environments and stuff sound good though, I just wanted to start out by recommending against relying on story telling. It's one of the worse mistakes I've seen GMs make. You cannot rely on your narrative, and even if you could, you shouldn't assume you're actually a good enough writer to pull it off. I actually find it insulting when people try to create emotions in me without ACTUALLY jeopardizing things I care about.

One of the massive failings of systems that focus on horror is that they think being able to die at any time is frightening. It's not, it's jarring, but not frightening. If you tell me over and over again that my character can die easily to a Cthulhu monster, then why the fuck would I bother trying to care about my character? You have to get me invested, and then you have to threaten my investment while still giving me reason to continue investing.

You get them invested by giving them a chance to enjoy and like their character in a setting that gives them a chance to CONTINUE enjoying and liking their character, you threaten that investment in varied and mostly obvious ways, but you don't belittle their investment or trash it too suddenly. If you belittle or devalue it then you've failed, and if you trash it too comfortably you've failed, because in both instances the game stops being important or fun for them.

I should point out that lots of players ARE perfectly willing to let themselves be horrified by really crappy story-telling, and there's nothing wrong with that. Just make sure you know what kinds of players yours are, because I know my group has played multiple horror games and usually when we were supposed to feel horror we only felt disgust, annoyance, or often levity.

Another note: Horror game creators often realize and accept that they cannot reliably create fear in every kind of player. There are too many different types of people in the world to hit on the right chord with the majority of them. The popular solution is to  give the horror game truly horrible controls. The fear then comes from the looming eventuality that you will have to do something quickly and there is no way in hell the game is responsive enough to make it happen correctly. Table top game systems do the same thing, the version of Cthulhu I played was a HORRIBLE system that relied on percentile dice. Your characters were pathetically bad at everything and they could easily die from tripping on a rug.

Do not do this. You can create fear without forcing a wretched interface onto your players. "Wretched Interface" includes incredibly weak characters. Resident Evil was scary because the controls and camera alone were terrifying to attempt to use, apparently there were also monsters in those games. I found the Flood in Halo scary because they were simultaneously repulsive and genuinely dangerous in a game where you can run, jump, and fire accurately with little fuss and zero delay. I've found tabletop games most frightening when my beloved character who I'd worked on for some time was in real danger of not being available to me any more. I've invested years a few of my Shadowrun characters, I actually retired them for awhile because I didn't want them to undertake such risky adventures anymore. I've actually loved all of my Shadowrun characters, and since character creation in that game takes eighty years per character, you REALLY don't want to die. "Back to the drawing board" is a truly horrific notion. Gestalt D&D characters have a similar condition where if they have any levels to speak of then they can often be tremendously complicated and time-consuming to build, so death gains a weight you don't want to bear. When that INVESTMENT I made was threatened I really felt fear. When throwaway Cthulhu characters were threatened though I just couldn't care. I didn't even like them because they were all such pussies. I hated them come to think of it. I hated just about everything about Cthulhu though, so that might be a bad example. Terrible system, terrible concept, terrible everything.

Anyway, that's what I know about fear in games. Not everyone feels it the same way, narrative alone is unreliable and quite frankly lazy, and investment is key for me. Can't get invested if the system, story, or character sucks. If the system sucks you know it'll let you down, if the story does then you know the DM is going to let you down, and if the character sucks then... well you know.
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Offline zioth

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Re: Scaring the Player (bwahahaha!)
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2012, 02:46:03 PM »
I've been collecting ideas on horror campaigns off and on for years. A couple of them came from the brilliantgameologist board. Here's the link:

http://zioth.com/roleplay/dm/creating_fear