Sha'ir Handbook: Semi-Phenomenal, Nearly-Cosmic Power - Discussion

[Sobolev]

Here you can find a Sha'ir Handbook.
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=849.0

And I would appreciate any and all constructive criticism.

[KellKheraptis]

In a bit I can go ahead and port over my Sha'ir build from BG.  I believe it was the one with Skypledged into Incantatrix.

Sha'ir 5/War Weaver 5/Skypledged 7/Incantatrix 3

There it is.  CL 19, full buffing from the Sor/Wiz, Cleric, and Druid list on the Tapestry, plus Metamagic Effect.

In Depth : The Sha'ir natively casts arcane and divine spells, and further already has access to the entire Sor/Wiz list.  Being able to draw on that alone makes War Weaver a great option to augment playing GOD with BFC.  Furthermore, Skypledged adds in the Cleric and Druid lists, and opens up the ability to get MASSIVE efficiency out of the limited Spellpool slots you may draw upon.  And of course, Incantatrix costs you nothing, as you do not lose spells you already know, and your spells known list is the entire list.  Furthermore, any of the good ones can be emulated or covered by Cleric/Druid spells even if you do get a DM who won't let you have Evocation from the Sor/Wiz list, so even then, you've lost nothing.  And in return, you gain another free metamagic feat, Metaconcert for Wizards, and Metamagic Effect.  Now imagine applying Persistent Draconic Polymorph to the entire party via the tapestry.

[Sobolev]

If you want to write up a little explanation to go with it I would be happy to post it.

[KellKheraptis]

If you want to write up a little explanation to go with it I would be happy to post it.

Will edit it into the original for ease of Copypasta.

[Sobolev]

Seems good, copied in complete with credit.

Now if only I could tell the difference between people reading and appreciating and me just looking at it over and over. 

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

Beyond Skypledged, is there any other way to qualify for the Citadel Mystic for the Sha'ir? As far as I can see there are no Conjuration(Healing) Spells on the Sha'ir's spell list.

[AyeGill]

Going to have to disagree with your rating on Geomancer. It allows you to cast your arcane spells as divine spells. That means you can cast them in armor, and if you pick up a source of Turn/Rebuke from a domain with contemplative(or whatever), you can use Divine Metamagic cheese.

[Nunkuruji]

Just noticed Sha'ir easily qualifies for Durthan PrC, granting Place Magic.

[KellKheraptis]

Going off the Geomancer principle...so long as you meet the skill requirements, you can get in at Shai'ir 3.  From there, you stay in Geomancer until you can get your obligatory 7 Skypledged levels, then finish out Geomancer.  Why, you ask?  You can now divine metamagic EVERYTHING, while still getting the entire Sor/Wiz, Cleric, and Druid list, in heavy armor.  Oh, and get 10 minor special abilities, one of which can be POUNCE as an Ex ability.  Think the Colossus of War, only as a really big bird...you're not Godzilla, you're fucking Bahamut Zero   BAB will always be 20, with an acorn of far travel, you're always getting the Ley Line CL bonus, and best of all, every feat is available to you as neither PrC has a feat tax.  Oh yeah...and you also qualify for Initiate of Mystra.  So go ahead and play Cheater of Mystra +1.  I will be refining the buff sequence on this build later, as I won't be surprised if it is capable of meeting my triumvirate of challenges I throw all my recent builds against (the Twice-Betrayer, the 10^100, and the Gish Challenge).  Enjoy!

[123456789blaaa]

I disagree with your rating of geomancer. Better BAB, great special attacks, great natural attacks...I think the geomancer is a clear win over just staying Sha'ir. It deserves black at least IMO (preferably blue).

Not sure if the focus is too far away from sha'ir but here are two nice sha'ir/geomancer builds from the recent IC Geomancer that you may want to add:

 Lo-Kag Rootwatcher

Huriyah

I can post and do the formatting myself if you don't have the time.

[phaenix]

We're allowed to necro around here, right?

I'm pretty sure the Sha'ir can trade in access to several of its domains for the appropriate Devotion feats. I'd go for Knowledge, Law, and Air Devotion feats, even without any source of turning. You'd lose a few good spells (True seeing, Air Walk, Calm Emotions, Control Winds, Find the Path, Dictum... a few others), but you won't be using those very often anyway, and you still maintain your ability to cast Divine spells for PrC qualifications. And you still get Freedom of Movement, which is probably the best divine spell Sha'ir get.

Relevant text (Complete Champion p.53):

If you are a cleric (or any other character class who gains access to a domain), you can choose any domain feat corresponding to the list of domains offered by your deity, even if you do not have access to those particular domains.

[...]

In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacri­ ficed domain.

I checked the errata and didn't see any changes to that part.

[TC X0 Lt 0X]

We're allowed to necro around here, right?

I'm pretty sure the Sha'ir can trade in access to several of its domains for the appropriate Devotion feats. I'd go for Knowledge, Law, and Air Devotion feats, even without any source of turning. You'd lose a few good spells (True seeing, Air Walk, Calm Emotions, Control Winds, Find the Path, Dictum... a few others), but you won't be using those very often anyway, and you still maintain your ability to cast Divine spells for PrC qualifications. And you still get Freedom of Movement, which is probably the best divine spell Sha'ir get.

Relevant text (Complete Champion p.53):

If you are a cleric (or any other character class who gains access to a domain), you can choose any domain feat corresponding to the list of domains offered by your deity, even if you do not have access to those particular domains.

[...]

In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacri­ ficed domain.

I checked the errata and didn't see any changes to that part.

The Sha'ir has access to the spells of those domains, not the domains themselves. It recieves none of the other benefits of these domains.

[phaenix]

The Sha'ir has access to the spells of those domains, not the domains themselves. It recieves none of the other benefits of these domains.

Is "access" defined explicitly anywhere? Here's what I came up with:

Complete Champion: quoted above, nothing more about what "access" means

PHB just says that says that choosing a domain grants you access to the domain's spells and granted power.

"If a noncleric enters a prestige class that allows access to a domain, the character still gains access to the domain."

No help there. Access is access... OK, let's check a newer source.

A domain spell is on a user’s spell list only if the user has access to that domain.

So, does the Sha'ir have Domain spells on its spell list? Yes.
Does it therefore have access to those domains? I would argue that it does.

Again, unless you have more explicity-defined "access?"

And if you were arguing that the wording of the Sha'ir ability prohibits it, I'm not so sure about that either.

..he gains no other benefit of the cleric class, including the granted powers of these domains.

emphasis mine, obviously. But according to CC, we don't need to be a cleric, so that makes no nevermind.

[vaz]

You do not have access to a domain, you have access to the spells on the domain.

It's like saying you have access to [Weapon Focus] feat, or you have the benefits of the weapon focus feat, such as how Swordsage is worded. They both provide the same "benefit", in that you gain +1 to attack with the specific weapon, but only one gives you the specific feat. Of course, that is mostly overlooked as a) Weapon Focus is a bone-ass feat tax b) it's not overpowered.

Check out Domain Draught for an example as well, from MiC

Upon drinking a domain draught, you gain access to its domain for 24 hours. You can use the domain's granted power, and if you normally prepare domain spells, you can add those from the draught's domain to your choices until the effect expires. If you drink a second domain draught before using the first one, the effect of the first one is lost.

Access; using the domains granted power, and the ability to prepare the domains spells to your choices. You only get one of those as a Sha'ir, which is the specific exception to the ability to prepare only the domains' spells provided you already can.

Edit - for another, check out Catalogues of Enlightenment;

"Base Ability: Choose a cleric domain; you gain the granted power of that domain."

"Higher-Order Ability: Once per day, you may cast a spell from the cleric domain you have chosen, as though you had prepared the spell normally. You must be of sufficient character level to cast the spell and have a Wisdom equal to 10 + the spell’s level."

No mention of access.