Author Topic: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered  (Read 22142 times)

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 01:38:35 PM »
It does when you don't have time or sanity to explain it to some block-head.
And where did I say that I wanted to put it on TVTropes?
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Offline veekie

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 01:45:22 PM »
Yeah, the fault in the statement lies in the assumption that the CORE is balanced, not that any particular splat is.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 01:54:30 PM »
Yeah, the fault in the statement lies in the assumption that the CORE is balanced, not that any particular splat is.
I think it's both, really. They're cherry picking when they say that Core is balanced and they're cherry picking when they say splats aren't.

You could just as easily turn it on it's head by making a party of a rogue, blaster wizard, swordsage, and favored soul and call them both balanced. People who make that statement are comparing apples to oranges and pretending it's apples to apples.

Actually, maybe you could call it an "Apples to Oranges Fallacy". It kind of has a nice ring to it and gets the point across without too much explanation.
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Offline kurashu

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 02:16:07 PM »
It does when you don't have time or sanity to explain it to some block-head.
And where did I say that I wanted to put it on TVTropes?

It's the same thing as putting it on TvTropes. What's the difference between making a topic on here and linking to it every time and making a page on TvTropes and linking to it every time? Other than the fact we wouldn't have hundreds of half-fitting examples listed in the topic?

More over, explaining something to someone who doesn't/won't get it isn't going to be easier when you just link them to a topic that's twenty pages of people trying to decide on what to call this and if it's an Appeal to Tradition or inversed or zig-zagged or something. In fact, if I were the person you were explaining this to, I would find it extremely demeaning that I was so far below you that I didn't even merit a conversation.

The question I'm asking is, "Why is this necessary?"

Actually, maybe you could call it an "Apples to Oranges Fallacy". It kind of has a nice ring to it and gets the point across without too much explanation.

Pretend I'm new to this forum and I've never heard this term before. Apples to Oranges Fallacy means nothing to me. Explain it.

If you wanted a name for this, you may as well call it the "Core-Splat Book Fallacy" at least that addresses the issue and doesn't try to apply a cutesy name to it.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 02:19:12 PM by kurashu »

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 02:29:53 PM »
Quote
The question I'm asking is, "Why is this necessary?"
Maybe to you.

Quote
In fact, if I were the person you were explaining this to, I would find it extremely demeaning that I was so far below you that I didn't even merit a conversation.
If you have the time and mental capacity to sit and try to explain something to someone who doesn't even want/try to understand (like it often is with some people) then more power to you. Not everyone has.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 02:32:15 PM by ImperatorK »
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Offline Whisper

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 05:40:31 PM »
You can't just plug different stories into each other, because they all have different notions of the possible.

A long time ago, D&D reached the point where it needed to decide whether it was to be an Arabian Nights universe of superpowered magic, with every player character a caster of some kind, or a Conan-and-Tolkien universe of brave heroes riding around on horseback, shooting bows, etc... perhaps accompanied by the occasional bone-casting, storm-calling, and even fire-throwing wizard, who cannot fly, talk to the gods, create universes, or bend time... because magic has its limits, too.

And D&D refused to make that decision.

You think D&D is bad on that deparment? Then Warhammer 40K would like a talk with you. It's a setting where you can perfectly expect powered armored mutants with explosive machine guns and space ships to face with pre-historic neandertals with wooden spears. Where the spanish inquisition with killer nuns faces drug-crazed space elves. Where WW I armies roll out against orcks. Where human infantry may as well be riding regular horses, hover bikes or segways. Where undead robots face against daemons. And either of those battles can go either way.

And no matter how nonsensical that setting is, no matter how unbalanced the rules are to the point some choices are never taken and others are autopicks, 40K is still extremely popular because lots of people precisely love that kind of crazy mash-up.

Warhammer 40k is a different beast altogether... the difference being that it's a wargame, and fluff is just that, fluff wrapped around some stats. If doesn't matter if my unit is riding horses or jetcycles in a wargame, the only thing that matters is that stats.

But god-magic in a RPG is something else again, because RPGs don't have a sharp line between fluff and mechanics. If I can fly, or teleport, that's not just X scale inches of move that ignores terrain. That's the power to break certain types of plots... and it's a power that is available to some character archetypes and not others.

One of the major appeals of RPGs is that it's Halloween with a story. You can be who you want to be, and go have adventures as that person. But D&D supplies a bunch of different character templates based on fiction, and balanced, not with each other, but with their fictional counterparts.

This is why we have tiers. Because Tiers are largely a function of the stories that generate them. Fighters are in the Conan tier. Wizards are in the Rand al'Thor tier. You can't make them work together because the stories they are from don't work together.

That's why people don't like ToB, for example. Not because it's overpowered, but because it takes Conan out of the Conan story, and forces them to play the Stone Monkey instead. Now, playing the Stone Monkey is a fine thing, but it's a fine thing in a Stone Monkey story. People who play fighters want to play Conan in Hyperboria.

Problem is, they are sitting at the same table with someone who wants to play Sparrowhawk. Incompatible stories. Conan is mighty within Conan's story because he can butcher five guards who catch him stealing the jeweled eyes from the idol of The One Who Coils. Sparrowhawk can change his shape at will and kill nine dragons solo, which is the standard of might in his story.

Each tier (apart from the fail tiers resulting from poor class design) corresponds to a type and scope of story.

Maybe what we really need is tiered versions of each class stereotype... tier 1 fighters who emulate Cuchulain and the Stone Monkey, and tier 3 wizards who can't fly, teleport, or shapeshift.

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 06:26:56 PM »
As I said, the "Core is Balanced" argument is made up of multiple types of fallacies. This is because there's more than one type of argument for "Core is Balanced), and they fall under different fallacies.

It's impractical to apply a generic term (beyond the current one) to those arguments because of how varied they can be.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2012, 06:51:54 PM »
As I said, the "Core is Balanced" argument is made up of multiple types of fallacies. This is because there's more than one type of argument for "Core is Balanced), and they fall under different fallacies.

It's impractical to apply a generic term (beyond the current one) to those arguments because of how varied they can be.
That's why I'm proposing the formulation of a condensed, specified on D&D, fallacy.
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Offline veekie

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2012, 10:48:56 PM »
Which is oversimplifying the issue really. Sure it may be catchy and easy to throw out in an argument, but it addresses none of the argument itself.
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Offline ImperatorK

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2012, 11:10:15 PM »
Which is oversimplifying the issue really. Sure it may be catchy and easy to throw out in an argument, but it addresses none of the argument itself.
Wha? How does it not address the argument when the whole point of the condensed fallacy is to address specifically it? :twitch
Are we talking past each other or something? 'Cause I couldn't make it any more clear than that. :-\
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 11:13:08 PM by ImperatorK »
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2012, 11:54:42 PM »
Which is oversimplifying the issue really. Sure it may be catchy and easy to throw out in an argument, but it addresses none of the argument itself.
Wha? How does it not address the argument when the whole point of the condensed fallacy is to address specifically it? :twitch
Are we talking past each other or something? 'Cause I couldn't make it any more clear than that. :-\

Labeling an argument with such a blanket term as the one you are prescribing is not addressing the argument's contents, it's addressing a stereotype that is present in the argument itself. Pointing out fallacies in someone else's argument is a legitimate way of discrediting the person giving the argument, but it does not prove the argument invalid.
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Offline oslecamo

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2012, 05:29:56 AM »
Warhammer 40k is a different beast altogether... the difference being that it's a wargame, and fluff is just that, fluff wrapped around some stats. If doesn't matter if my unit is riding horses or jetcycles in a wargame, the only thing that matters is that stats.
1-40K has its own RPG nowadays.
2-What exactly would be wrong with specialized bred horses that can move and jump as well as jetbikes? :p

But god-magic in a RPG is something else again, because RPGs don't have a sharp line between fluff and mechanics. If I can fly, or teleport, that's not just X scale inches of move that ignores terrain. That's the power to break certain types of plots... and it's a power that is available to some character archetypes and not others.

One of the major appeals of RPGs is that it's Halloween with a story. You can be who you want to be, and go have adventures as that person. But D&D supplies a bunch of different character templates based on fiction, and balanced, not with each other, but with their fictional counterparts.
Gimme a break. Dark Heresy (40K RPG) does just that, it's probably worstly balanced (wanna go barbarian-style melee with a pointy stick? You totally can! You'll just be shot to pieces by all the futuristic ranged weapons out there. Meanwhile psykers are still twisting reality on a whim), and still plenty of people love it.

This is why we have tiers. Because Tiers are largely a function of the stories that generate them. Fighters are in the Conan tier. Wizards are in the Rand al'Thor tier. You can't make them work together because the stories they are from don't work together.

That's why people don't like ToB, for example. Not because it's overpowered, but because it takes Conan out of the Conan story, and forces them to play the Stone Monkey instead. Now, playing the Stone Monkey is a fine thing, but it's a fine thing in a Stone Monkey story. People who play fighters want to play Conan in Hyperboria.
Wrong, that's why we have levels. No matter how you look at it, Conan isn't that high of a level because on his own words, even at his prime he'll start having trouble if he has to face more than a dozen faceless mooks at once. In D&D a 20th level fighter can effortestly defeat pretty much any number of lv1 warriors.

Plus I believe plenty of people out there have already pointed out you can just change fluff for stuff like ToB.

Problem is, they are sitting at the same table with someone who wants to play Sparrowhawk. Incompatible stories. Conan is mighty within Conan's story because he can butcher five guards who catch him stealing the jeweled eyes from the idol of The One Who Coils. Sparrowhawk can change his shape at will and kill nine dragons solo, which is the standard of might in his story.

Each tier (apart from the fail tiers resulting from poor class design) corresponds to a type and scope of story.

Maybe what we really need is tiered versions of each class stereotype... tier 1 fighters who emulate Cuchulain and the Stone Monkey, and tier 3 wizards who can't fly, teleport, or shapeshift.
No, we don't. Because the monsters and challenges at each level are still the same. And you're certainly not fighting 9 huge/bigger dragons per party member at freaking level 1. The classes need to be balanced with the enemies. Nobody wants to read about Sparrowhawk killing five guards and stealing some jewels. What happens it's that Sparrowhawk was Conan at some earlier point of his careeer.

Offline littha

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2012, 06:35:33 AM »
40k does have guys mounted on horses... they have grenade lances... there is a mechanical difference between them and jetbikes last I checked, Jetbikes move 12" assault 6" and ignore terrain where as cavalry moves 6" charges 12" and doesn't

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2012, 07:29:14 AM »
Says you. I've seen a fair amount of IG armies that use jetbike models for their rough riders units since IG doesn't have any "official" jetbike unit, and no one has trouble with it as long as you point out they're rough riders before the game starts. Using cavarly movement rules of course. :p

Bikes and other stuff are also popular.
(click to show/hide)

I've also seen space wolves conversions with all kind of other animals for custom chapters, and ork armies can field their looted wagons as they damn please
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« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 07:31:49 AM by oslecamo »

Offline littha

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2012, 07:33:07 AM »
Obviously there is that but that there are separate rules for cavalry movement proves the point enough.

I personally own a fully converted pre heresy emperors children army that contains jetbikes...

Offline oslecamo

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2012, 07:43:07 AM »
I believe your last statement proves my point more. Just because none of the SM codexes have any "official" jetbike unit, that doesn't stop people from fielding "jetbikes" that just happen to use slightly diferent rules. Just because the emperor's children are a chaos chapter, that didn't stop you from making a pre-heresy army of them.

Similarly in D&D, nothing's stoping you from picking up a crusader and fluffing it as a barbarian that fights on random whims while invigorating himself from the violence around him!

Offline RobbyPants

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2012, 08:31:05 AM »
Which is oversimplifying the issue really. Sure it may be catchy and easy to throw out in an argument, but it addresses none of the argument itself.
Wha? How does it not address the argument when the whole point of the condensed fallacy is to address specifically it? :twitch
Are we talking past each other or something? 'Cause I couldn't make it any more clear than that. :-\
I think SinFire pretty much covered it. You're taking a somewhat complicated issue and trying to boil it down into a title.

At a minimum, you're going to have to have some sort of discussing with the other person. Maybe you can pre-write something so you can copy-paste it instead of re-hashing it each time, but at a minimum, you'll have to explain that the person is only comparing balanced portions of Core to unbalanced portions of splat books. In a few sentences, you can point out that there is crazy stuff in Core too, and there are good options in splat books as well.
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Offline littha

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2012, 10:22:46 AM »
I believe your last statement proves my point more. Just because none of the SM codexes have any "official" jetbike unit, that doesn't stop people from fielding "jetbikes" that just happen to use slightly diferent rules. Just because the emperor's children are a chaos chapter, that didn't stop you from making a pre-heresy army of them.

Slight nitpicking here but they are a chaos legion (chapters were created after the heresy) and were loyal before the heresy anyway so I don't see the difference in them or a pre heresy ultramarines army other than colour scheme.

Offline skydragonknight

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2012, 11:37:58 AM »
There is a valid complaint that splatbook writers do not take enough other material consideration when writing them. Any given splatbook is typically designed to be balanced with Core and how it interacts with Core; however, most don't take any other books into consideration.

Consider Persistent Spell from Complete Arcane (and earlier works). Sure, at high levels you can have low level buffs lasting all day, but you lose your higher level (typically the most important) slots doing so. Not broken by itself.

Consider Divine Metamagic from Complete Divine. Okay, you can boost the range of your spells, or maybe the damage, or maybe double the duration. Not broken by itself.

Consider Nightsticks from Libris Mortis. Potentially useful for an undead heavy campaign, but not compared to the other rods in the same section (-4 turn resistance, twice as many controlled undead, +3 effective turning/rebuking level) which are all just as affordable. You could power a divine feat from the book, but they're all very niche feats for specific types of Clerics. Not broken by itself.

Now combine the three and the Cleric goes from a healbot/buffer with a few choice spells to CoDzilla. While Splatbooks aren't typically unbalanced in and of themselves, the sheer number of them can be an unbalancing factor, rivaling and occasionally surpassing the lack of balance in Core. This is one reason why Core-PHB2-Completes is the most common set of allowed books (with MIC, SpC and Races being the usual next picks). More options, but still few enough that a DM could know the worst he could expect. 
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 11:41:15 AM by skydragonknight »
Hmm.

Offline kurashu

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Re: New Fallacy - splatbooks are overpowered
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2012, 12:26:48 PM »
Which is oversimplifying the issue really. Sure it may be catchy and easy to throw out in an argument, but it addresses none of the argument itself.
Wha? How does it not address the argument when the whole point of the condensed fallacy is to address specifically it? :twitch
Are we talking past each other or something? 'Cause I couldn't make it any more clear than that. :-\
I think SinFire pretty much covered it. You're taking a somewhat complicated issue and trying to boil it down into a title.

At a minimum, you're going to have to have some sort of discussing with the other person. Maybe you can pre-write something so you can copy-paste it instead of re-hashing it each time, but at a minimum, you'll have to explain that the person is only comparing balanced portions of Core to unbalanced portions of splat books. In a few sentences, you can point out that there is crazy stuff in Core too, and there are good options in splat books as well.

Thank you. I think I was being too snippy and crabby (bad day at work) when trying to get this point across.

There is a valid complaint that splatbook writers do not take enough other material consideration when writing them. Any given splatbook is typically designed to be balanced with Core and how it interacts with Core; however, most don't take any other books into consideration.

[snip]

Now combine the three and the Cleric goes from a healbot/buffer with a few choice spells to CoDzilla. While Splatbooks aren't typically unbalanced in and of themselves, the sheer number of them can be an unbalancing factor, rivaling and occasionally surpassing the lack of balance in Core. This is one reason why Core-PHB2-Completes is the most common set of allowed books (with MIC, SpC and Races being the usual next picks). More options, but still few enough that a DM could know the worst he could expect.

In fairness, most of those issues were officially handled with errata. But another aspect of the issue we are not discussing is that a DM has complete control over what material is allowed in his game AND how it's implemented. Most DMs take the lazy way out and simply cry "Borked!!!1!!!oenoeneone" rather than read it and understand it. Example: When is the last time you had a DM allow Incarnum? I do, but I used to read that book as a bedtime story.


As for the statement about ToB making Conan not Conan, he's totally a Warblade.