When does the monster die? (D&D 3.5)

[SeekerOfKnowledge]

A bit of a debate has erupted in my D&D group, and there is a question as to when the monster dies in a combat. The Players' Handbook has this very clearly defined, except that it specifically references characters (from the SRD):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#dying

(click to show/hide)

Dying

A dying character is unconscious and near death. She has -1 to -9 current hit points. A dying character can take no actions and is unconscious. At the end of each round (starting with the round in which the character dropped below 0 hit points), the character rolls d% to see whether she becomes stable. She has a 10% chance to become stable. If she does not, she loses 1 hit point. If a dying character reaches -10 hit points, she is dead.

The three options seem to be these:

1) Immediately. When dropped to 0 or negative hit points, the monster falls, dead.

2) On the monster's initiative count. The monster may die before his action, but does not drop until he gets an action.

3) The end of the round of combat. The thought here is that all actions are simultaneous.

The main complaint is that it is "metagaming" to know exactly when the monster dies; this would allow the PCs, for example, to change targets based on that knowledge.

I really don't have a problem with the metagaming -- I have been gaming a LONG time, and number one is the only way I have ever seen it done... Regardless, if you could please point me toward some RAW that indicated one way or another -- multiple, conflicting rules are fine -- I just want a good place to stand once I decide how I want to pursue this. The only thing -- besides the quote above -- that I have been able to find to support when anything happens is the Cleave/Great Cleave feats; if the monster doesn't fall immediately upon death, how would Cleave/Great Cleave actually work?

Thanks for any light you can shed on this!

[InnaBinder]

1a) Immediately upon hitting -10.

[Halinn]

The word "character" in the rules also includes monsters.
Here are two examples, from page 5 in the PHB:

To make a skill check, roll a d20 and add your character’s skill modifier. Compare the result to the Difficulty Class (DC) of the task at hand.

To attack an opponent, roll a d20 and add your character’s attack bonus. If the result equals or exceeds the opponent’s Armor Class (AC), the attack succeeds.

So obviously, monsters can't make skill checks or attacks.

[SeekerOfKnowledge]

Nice! Thanks!

So obviously, monsters can't make skill checks or attacks.

[SeekerOfKnowledge]

Thank you for the response, but I am really looking for RAW citations to bring back to my group.

1a) Immediately upon hitting -10.

[Kethrian]

Page 73 of the Rules Compendium: "A creature becomes dead when its current hit points are reduced to –10, its Constitution drops to 0, or it’s killed outright by massive damage or some other death-dealing effect."

[Shining Phoenix]

Note that Undead and Constructs die at 0, as do targets of Disintegrate. There are also ways to extend the -10 even lower.

[Jackinthegreen]

The RAW stuff has been covered, but let's go into a bit of discussion about why this issue came up.

Is it metagaming to know when something dies?  Of course not.  It should be quite obvious within the game when something is dead or dying.  I'm all for questioning assumptions, but this goes along the lines of the scene from Boondock Saints where they shoot the cat into a bloody mess then ask if it's dead. DUH!

[Tiltowait]

Monsters die when they are killed.

[SneeR]

Monsters drop at -1 hp. They die at -10, but it is safe to assume that they die (or that the PCs coup de gace everyone) at the combat's end. The only game where the distinction of -1 or -10 has mattered that I have played was one where the one who strikes the killing blow captures the soul of the demon they kill.

[SeekerOfKnowledge]

Thanks for the responses. And, as you guessed, the real issue is when do monsters drop, versus when do they die.

Thanks again!

[Kajhera]

Monsters drop at -1 hp. They die at -10, but it is safe to assume that they die (or that the PCs coup de gace everyone) at the combat's end. The only game where the distinction of -1 or -10 has mattered that I have played was one where the one who strikes the killing blow captures the soul of the demon they kill.

With the exception of if you wanted to be merciful. 

[NunoM]

Just a few reminders:
- there are spells that inform the caster about the current health of creatures/characters around (don't remember the name now and can't check it, though)
- spells like "Death Knell", remove that last remaining life force from a dying creature to benefit the caster (so, it would be a useless spell if the creatures died at 0Hps!)

...and as a last note:
- my gaming group houseruled that you could do a Heal check on a creature/character to determine how far it is from dying...