Planeswalker [base] (Magipunk)

[Ziegander]

What about something like... each node has a set of abilities which scale with your level, but not automatically (and the spacings can be different for different nodes).  You can aim for any tier of abilities for which you meet the level prereq, and you'll always get the abilities you try for; however, each tier has a higher attunement DC.

Alternative mechanic #2, no points:

You get autoscaling level-based abilities from a node when you attune.  However, whenever you use an ability from that node, you have to make an attunement check (set by the ability), or suffer X.

I like both of these new ideas quite a bit, but I think the second one is the better mechanic of the two. It's simple, it's unique, and it's easy to play.

[sirpercival]

OK, so running with the 2nd idea, for the Abyss we have 5 abilities.  For any given ability, you can choose which tier you want when you attune (among those for which you meet the prereqs).

• Abyssal weaponry: Make attunement check with the first successful attack you make in a round; if you fail, you take 1 point of damage per PW level with each successful attack that round.
  

  Level	Ability	DC
  1st	Masterwork longsword	7
  3rd	+1 longsword	10
  6th	+1 flaming longsword	18
  10th	+1 flaming unholy longsword	25
  18th	+1 anarchic flaming unholy longsword	35

• Demonic Call (Sp): 5-round recharge; CE creatures only.  Make attunement check on the summoned creature's turn or it attacks you if able.
  

  Level	Ability	DC
  1st	Summon Monster I	10
  3rd	SM II	13
  5th	SM III	16
  7th	SM IV	19
  9th	SM V	22
  11th	SM VI	25
  13th	SM VII	28
  15th	SM VIII	31
  17th	SM IX	34

• Glare of the Damned (Sp): 3 round recharge.  Whenever you cast, make an attunement check or be subject to the spell yourself (with saves, SR, etc).
  

  Level	Ability	DC
  1st	Cause Fear	8
  4th	Death Knell	14
  8th	Unholy Blight	18
  8th	Chaos Hammer	18
  13th	Harm	26
  16th	Finger of Death	32

• Tanar'ri Infusion: The effects on this table are cumulative.  Whenever you make a skill check using any of the modified abilities, make an attunement check or roll twice and take the worse result.
  

  Level	Ability	DC
  1st	Str +2	8
  4th	Con +2	13
  7th	Str +2	18
  10th	Cha +2	23
  13th	Con +4	28
  16th	Dex +4	33
  19th	Str +4	38

• Unholy Countenance (Sp): At will.  Whenever casting, make an attunement check or duration is reduced to 1 round.
  

  Level	Ability	DC
  3rd	Desecrate	11
  5th	Balor Nimbus	13
  12th	Visage of the Deity (fiendish only)	23
  16th	Unholy Aura	31

How's that?

EDIT: If I do it this way, do I still want to have the "influence" effect on attunement?

[littha]

The whole attunement DC thing reminds me of Truenamer if I am honest

[sirpercival]

Except without the DCs into the stratosphere, without investing skill points, and when you fail the check your effect still happens (there's just a downside).

[littha]

More that there is a huge swing factor in your daily power that will make this an absolute bitch to balance.

[sirpercival]

Is that based on the one node that's posted above, or the later discussion?  Because the node that's posted with the class is being scrapped.

[littha]

Both honestly, there is a fundamental issue with basing class abilities off of (sudo)skill checks that lies beyond the boosters. The variance on a d20 means that you could easily get a run of 18-19-20 or 1-2-3 and completely ruin your class for several days on the go. Sure the class isn't inoperable even if you fail the check but from a design standpoint you want to avoid what the player would see as constant failure, it deincentifies the class. 

Especially with the level caps because then it feels that your 20 hasn't really got you anything more than a 10 and that your low rolls are penalising you.

[sirpercival]

I'm not sure I follow you.  In the most recent incarnation, you automatically get the ability you want (as long as you qualify).  You just have to make the attunement check or suffer the consequence when you use the ability (as noted in the node ability descriptions), and in general the DCs shouldn't be too hard to make at the appropriate level.  If you think the DCs are still too high for particular abilities, I'd be happy to change them.

But you'll never miss out on an ability by rolling low on an attune check.

[littha]

It is less about actually getting the abilities and more about the effects of failure on the human psyche, failure makes you feel bad no matter what. Even if there were no mechanical penalties for failure it would still make you feel bad and thus makes them want to play the class less.
This is advanced games design theory, it is a rather bizarre concept to get your head around.
I wrote my (BSc) dissertation on this stuff...

That said as the class is unlikley to be used by anyone outside this forum (and people here generally have a better grasp on consequence of success/failure tasking) it really wont matter much.

[sirpercival]

Hmm... do you have any suggestions for how else to utilize the attunement check?  Or should there not be a check to begin with?  Because almost every class in D&D has some sort of check involved... I'm not sure what to do with your observation, though I do understand it.

[littha]

First would be to split the attunement section from the granted abilities section, is is a huge wall of text as is and as they are in the same section it feels like you can lose abilities if you fail the check. Possibly split to Node powers and Planar attunement or the like. There is currently no influence on the abilities gained with attunement so there is no reason to keep them in the same section.

I suggest if you are going to use a check like that to have some (small) positive abilities granted from high attunement. Generally you would also want to set the DC about 10% lower than the expected mid point of each level so there should be about a 60% success rate.

These are only what you call quality of life changes though they could make balancing the class significantly easier.

[sirpercival]

Yes, I was going to rewrite that section but I wanted to decide on the new mechanics first.  If I hear no objections to the methods above I'll rewrite it tomorrow.

According to my calculations I think the DCs are fine or even a bit low.  In terms of the rewards... maybe I could make the planar augmentation dependent on excellent attunement checks?

[littha]

That would be a good idea though they would need some scaling with level in that case.

[sirpercival]

Alright, I rewrote the class ability stuff, added a new feat, and fixed the Abyss Node writeup.

I'll begin working on more nodes with this mechanic; I'll be doing them in alphabetical order.  If anyone would like to contribute, feel free.

[Jackinthegreen]

If you're going to do something equivalent to the Positive Energy plane, perhaps have a capstone allowing you to literally blow something up through positive energy?  Page 149 of the DMG has the rules for what happens.

[Shiki]

Did you work and finished some nodes already, and if so, would you be so kind as to post them, sirpercival? Unless you were planning on posting 'em all in one swoop, which is fine too. I'd probably feel more secure about trying to make one or two (or more) if I could see some more examples.

[sirpercival]

I haven't done most of them....   I'm almost done with Arborea, and that's all so far.  Here are a few guidelines that I'm using:

~8 of the planes get the SMI-IX lines, the ones with only one associated alignment.
~Each plane gets one or two more tracks of spells, usually taken from cleric or druid spells, especially domain spells that make sense.
~Each plane gets one or two thematic tracks, like the abyssal weaponry based on the Balor's long sword (I figured the 9 hells would get natural attacks like a Pit Fiend or something) or the celestial mount that Arborea is about to have.
~Each track's downside should be something noticeable but not at all crippling, and thematically related.  So far I've tried to keep every penalty different, but it probably won't end up that way because there's a limited amount of penalties one could apply.

Does that help?  I'll post Arborea tonight or tomorrow morning.

[Shiki]

Yes it does. But still, I'll wait 'til you complete that one before suggesting anything, just to be sure. You can take your time though, it's no biggie.

[sirpercival]

I'm not rushing, it was just next on my to-do list and I had most of it finished already. 

[sirpercival]

OK, Arborea is up.  Next up: Arcadia.