No magic allowed... best possible low level build?

[Allisade]

I've currently opened about 40 tabs worth of handbooks and will be reading up on everything I can, but our DM has put forth a challenge for the next campaign he's going to run and I thought I'd ask for thoughts on it here as well.

A non magic world (to start - at later levels he tells us there'll be magic), so no magical items, no spells (Arcane or divine), no psionics, no... anything really. Still D&D races, and still your usual medieval style world... but no magic. 

He calls it a "real world" campaign.

I say if there's not magical healing available (or modern surgical techniques), I can't imagine running around getting in sword fights would be a really common habit, so it kinda begs the question of why I'd choose to be an adventurer in this world in the first place but...

But we're all supposed to make level 1 characters (30pt buy for stats) and play from there.

Advice?

Right now I'm thinking Ranger-esque or some sort of distance fighter, and take advantage of cover a lot... maybe add a sneaky component... (safety through distance and hiding?) - but I don't really know crap about anything and could use some help - I've been playing clerics for the last few years (and loving them) but don't know the tricks for a spell-less type.

I'm open to a good melee build thoughts too - the ranger thought was just my first feeling on the subject. 

Oh, we also all have to be good and heroic. I suggested the idea of playing an evil poisoner who would avoid combat - and was shot down pretty cold.

Help? 

[SolEiji]

Is ToB allowed?  Crusader could cover healing.  Besides that, I'm thinking archery will become your friend.  The best way to survive is to never be in arms reach.

[linklord231]

Going off what the OP said about the DM wanting a "real world" campaign, Crusader healing will be even less likely to be allowed than Cleric healing. 
"I heal people by hitting other people." 
"How does that work?" 
"I hit the bad guys, and my friends feel better." 
"Yes, but how does it work?" 
"Um... "

Maybe consider a Bard?  Max diplomacy and the other social skills, be the party face.  Avoid combat by sneaking and talking your way out of it.  And see if you can trade your bardic spellcasting for something else.  A cursory glance at the Bard Handbook doesn't reveal any ACFs or variant classes that give up spells, so talk to your DM about a possible fair trade.  Maybe one of the bard kits from Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide?

[X-Codes]

Evil poisoner is one thing, but there's nothing saying you can't be a good poisoner.

At level 1, a Whisper Gnome Rogue with 16 Intelligence and 4 ranks in Craft (Poison-Making) can create 1 can of Sleep Smoke (Waterdeep) each day for 4gp, 1sp, and 7cp, and with decent Dex will have a Hide/Move Silently modifiers that are virtually impossible to beat from any significant distance, allowing him to sneak up close, toss a can of Sleep Smoke, and force everything within a 20' radius to make fortitude saves against sleep.

RE: Linklord's Ninja - DarkSun Bards have no spellcasting, and have some pretty fucking ludicrous abilities in exchange for that drawback.  Probably nothing compared to the loss of spellcasting, but hey, what are you gonna do...?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I haven't been given a subforum here yet and my previous dump spot is dead but there is stuff in there for well everything, specifically maximizing natural healing from gitp I think

[altpersona]

feral water orc barb?

or diplomancer.

[JohnnyMayHymn]

+1 dipllomancer

handle animal could get interesting too

[altpersona]

i see your +1 and raise you a +1 on your handle animal.

does no magic mean no fantasy creatures?

pixie ftw?


also Ogre Mage? Ex regen 5.

[Calico]

Well, if there really will be full on magic at later levels and you think the campaign will live that long, try to endure till then with one of the beefier full casters (cleric springs to mind).  Even with dedicating your feats towards whatever you'll be lackluster, but when the magic turns on, bang baby!  All of the sudden you (probably) just became the most powerful thing in the campaign world.  Your post wasn't clear if even taking said casterly classes was an option, but if it is, then this is pretty rewarding.  (I have played in a conceptually similar campaign using Pathfinder and playing as a summoner, and it was pretty awesome when the magic turned on midway through a climactic battle: suddenly I'm buffing up the party and riding a flying blue dire weasel, ass was kicked and names were taken!)

If the above is not an option, then I'd suggest factotum if you're inclined to go skill monkeying (Iaijutsu is nice and mundane).  Otherwise, yeah the ranger-ish idea sounds good, and I'll second the water-orc barbarian for meleeing.  Oooh, just had a thought: swift-hunter might be nice for this.

@ X-Codes: While I'm all for poison being devoid of alignment connotations, the OP mentioned something about being heroic as well as a goody-two-shoes and poison doesn't fit that part of the bill so well.  Nice idea though, consider it pilfered.

[sirpercival]

Is ToB allowed at all?  If so, then my suggestion:

Max out your Int.  Start with Warblade 1 to be the least squishy at level 1, and take Sapphire Nightmare Blade.  Then, grab 1 level of cloistered cleric, and swap out all three of your domains for Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, and either Trickery Devotion (if no errata) or maybe Law Devotion.  You don't care about the spellcasting (though if it turns on later you'll have a start).  Then go into Factotum for three levels, making sure to max Concentration, Knowledges, and Iaijutsu Focus.  Once you hit level 3, almost every feat should be Font of Inspiration.

At level 6, take a level in Master of Masks, and learn the Gladiator Mask (and another of your choice) so you can be proficient with all exotic weapons.  Start using a Gnomish Quickrazor (or draw&drop a cursed sword -2 if you can get one), and also take Boomerang Daze.

If magic hasn't turned on at this point, take 5 more levels of Factotum to get Cunning Surge, with another Warblade level thrown in to get IHS and WRT.

[Ziegander]

Ugh. It sounds like the DM is saying, "no, you can't use magic or magic items, but eventually you'll be fighting things with supernatural ability, spell-like abilities, and full-on spellcasting." And if that's the case, then FUCK HIM. The game will not work and all of the players will die and no one will have fun. Bull shit.

Now, it might be interesting to see how a game with literally no magic in it at all would work. No monsters with any abilities that aren't extraordinary, no monsters that were magically created/enhanced/modified, no DMPCs with spellcasting, no magic items, no artifacts, and no PCs with spell casting or supernatural/spell-like abilities. It could be fun for a few levels, until Dire Lions and Bulettes start to show up. Then almost everyone would still be totally fucked.

[altpersona]

maybe some paragon, alone its 'ok' and if the casting kicks in later its even better.

[phaedrusxy]

It could be fun for a few levels, until Dire Lions and Bulettes start to show up. Then almost everyone would still be totally fucked.

That's why Handle Animal is the best option possible in these kinds of games. You can make those your pet, and run away and hide if it looks like they might lose the fight. 

[lans]

So dinosaur wrangling  Marshal halfling? Use nets and aid other, with mounted combat so the animal can win the fight.
 
You could also try Incarnate Construct, Martial  Monk

[NiteCyper]

Just for fun, I decide to reference everything in the previous post:

So dinosaur wrangling  Marshal halfling? Use nets and aid other, with mounted combat so the animal can win the fight.
 
You could also try Incarnate Construct, Martial  Monk

At level 1, a Whisper Gnome Rogue with decent Dex will have a Hide/Move Silently modifiers that are virtually impossible to beat from any significant distance, allowing him to sneak up close.

To wit, the sneakiest, non-magical, playable race is a Muckdweller last I recall. I recommend the Factotum base class and maybe a Rogue base for the extra skill-points. It seems that the Factotum's class features are Extraordinary abilities. Technically, Swordsages (if you allow the RAW) start off with the most skills, and maneuvers and stances are Extraordinary abilities unless otherwise stated.

[Mixster]

Ugh. It sounds like the DM is saying, "no, you can't use magic or magic items, but eventually you'll be fighting things with supernatural ability, spell-like abilities, and full-on spellcasting." And if that's the case, then FUCK HIM. The game will not work and all of the players will die and no one will have fun. Bull shit.

Now, it might be interesting to see how a game with literally no magic in it at all would work. No monsters with any abilities that aren't extraordinary, no monsters that were magically created/enhanced/modified, no DMPCs with spellcasting, no magic items, no artifacts, and no PCs with spell casting or supernatural/spell-like abilities. It could be fun for a few levels, until Dire Lions and Bulettes start to show up. Then almost everyone would still be totally fucked.

Depends on when the casting kicks in, but mundanes can handle themselves fine until level 5.


---
On topic, I really like the Factotum + Warblade suggestion, Maxing Int and getting knowledge devotion gets you fast access to being a "knowledge based warrior", with Iaijutsu Focus a few levels later. On level 6 you should be the most all-round member of the group who can use all weapons, be sneaky and disguise-y while also being talky. All-around you'd be able to do everything well.

Another option is the Swashbuckler + Feat Rogue + Daring Outlaw. Who can dish out a good load of damage, while still having skill points and feats enough for everything else.

[Jackinthegreen]

By RAW Feat Rogue doesn't work with Daring Outlaw since there's the 2d6 Sneak Attack requirement.  However, Daring Warrior would technically work.  Is that what you were going for?

A combo of fighter, rogue, and swashbuckler can be pretty effective.  Moreso if you take the Hit and Run fighter ACF to get dex to damage

[sirpercival]

Also swift hunter could be good.

[Bearchucks]

You can get around the 2d6 SA requirement with, among other things, the Shadow Hand stance that gives you sneak attack (Assassin's Stance, 2d6 SA, 3rd level Shadow Hand), taking level 1 in two classes that grant a sneak-attack-like feature (while still letting you go feat-rogue, yes, it's an ugly solution but it's there) any other sources of sneak attack that folk more apt than me have found (and are probably somewhere, check handbooks for getting class abilities, I bet there's one around).  Sneaking, talking, skills and smarts.

Able Learner (feat: lets you pay 1-for-1 for ex-class skills) would be a decent idea if you want to keep rogue-exclusive skills up).

+1 for Swift Hunter.

[Allisade]

Thank you All for the suggestions =)

I'm going to have to do a lot of reading (and Thank you extra tons for the links! that *really* helps! =)) but this is exactly why I come to this board - the depth of knowledge (and willingness to share!) is amazing and never fails to show me new possibilities, I really appreciate you all and am a much better player thanks to this site and all you have taught me.

Thank you!


For those who care - I'm so far loving the idea of the all around build (I like being able to help the group whatever the situation, and don't feel the need myself to master of anything - though if it happens that's ok too =)) and while factotum and warblade are both new to me - I'm looking forward to learning about them =) Anyone able to tell me where to look up the swift hunter? I'll find it with google if not - no worries =)

More than likely this DM will veto anything remotely interesting, but I might be able to get the whisper gnome or water half orc builds by him... so far he's said the available races are humans, elves, dwarves, and genasi (the half elemental humans... in his non magical "real world" game... *sigh*) - when asked by a friend if he could play a gnome, the dm responded "well, gnomes aren't core..."

When I asked about playing a half Minotaur (not really expecting him to allow the strength possibilities in his 30pnt build world) his answer was "play a half mythological race? I don't think so"

Half elemental is ok, but quarter bull is just too far fetched apparently =)

It's going to be an uphill battle on this one.

But thanks to you guys I'll at least have fun with the attempts =)