PF: Spell Perfection and Shadowcraft Mages

[caelic]

So I've been playing around with a 12th level build for a PF game that incorporates the Complete books and Races books, and...ye gods.

Gnome Illusionist 7/Shadowcraft Mage 5

1. SF (Illusion)
1. Extend Spell (flaw)
1. Earth Sense
3. (Metamagic feat of +2 or less)
5. Heighten Spell
6. Earth Spell
9. Arcane Thesis
12. Spell Perfection (silent image)


So:  mostly, a very basic shadowcraft mage build (really, a little too basic--nobody would take 7 levels of illusionist--but I want to keep this to bare bones right now and focus on the feat interaction.)

Spell Perfection, though, makes significant changes.

The first effect of Spell Perfection is that you get to apply any one metamagic feat you have to the spell without increasing the level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell above 9th level.

Whoa. 

Now, obviously, we'll be using this with Heighten Spell.  The upswing is that EVERY spell slot the character has can now be converted into a maxed-out Shadowcraft Silent Image, heightened up to 6th level.  (We're going to assume here that the DM isn't insane enough to allow Gnome Illusions with PF cantrip rules, and thus provide an unlimited number of Silent Images per day, so let's go with "Every spell of first level or higher.")

But there's more.  Much, much more.

If you have other feats that apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of the spell, that bonus is doubled.

SF: Illusion?  +2 to the save DC.  Not bad.

Arcane Thesis?  The +2 to the CL of the spell becomes a +4.  If your DM is generous, the reduction in metamagic costs may also be doubled to a 2-level reduction, but that's a little more iffy.

Earth Spell?  Well, the bonus to caster level isn't really "set," so that probably won't increase...but the +1 to the overall level of the spell IS.  Our Heightened Silent Images will now be TWO levels higher.

So: our 12th level SCM can take a first level spell slot and Heighten it to 6th level for free.  Earth Spell will then kick in and raise it to an 8th level spell, allowing the mimicry of a 7th level spell that is 100% real, with a +2 to DC and a +9 to CL.


That's...rather good, really.

[Aradu]

Your DM allows 3.5 skill ranks to qualify for PF feats, without adjustment? Also, why only to 6th level? Spell perfection can do up to  what would be 9th level slots and doesn't require you to be able to cast spells of the theoretical adjusted level. The magical lineage trait knocks the base level one down for the purpose of the cost of metamagic adjustment, so with earth spell doubled you'd get 11th level silent images from cantrips even without the substitution level, if your DM is silly enough to allow combining spell perfection, heighten and shadowcraft mage in the first place.

[caelic]

Your DM allows 3.5 skill ranks to qualify for PF feats, without adjustment?

For some reason, yes.  He's enamored of the 3.5 skill system, and I frankly don't think it's occurred to him that not tweaking it means getting feats (in some cases) 3 levels before you really should.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's basically over kill at this point and not needed, but there is also a PF trait to make one spell of your choice get to reduce the cost of metamagic adjustments on it by -1.  Unlike Arcane Thesis, which is poorly written on this front in its own right, the trait has absolutely no limitation on resulting in a net negative level adjustment at all.  There was a thread on EnWorld a while back that someone made where I was trying to find good 1st level spells to use that with a +0 adjustment meta feat to turn into infini-cast cantrips.

EDIT: For your meta feat of +2 or less, since PF stuff is open, may I suggest Persistent Spell or Bouncing Spell?

(Yeah, PF fixed caster superiority all right...)

[Mixster]

The gnome substitution level in Races of Stone gets you Silent Image as a cantrip.

You have unlimited cantrips in Pathfinder.
With Spell Perfection all those spells are ninth level.
With Earth and Heighten spell, all those spells have +9 caster level

This will go crazy.
Here's a total overkill sample build for this:
Gnome Illusionist 3/Master Specialist (Illusionist 4)/ Shadowcraft Mage 5
You don't even need more since you'd be casting unlimited 10th level, caster level 22+ and with 24 Int you'd have a save DC of 31 silent images.

Oh yeah, Pathfinder sure balanced out wizards.

[caelic]

The gnome substitution level in Races of Stone gets you Silent Image as a cantrip.

You have unlimited cantrips in Pathfinder.
With Spell Perfection all those spells are ninth level.
With Earth and Heighten spell, all those spells have +9 caster level

Oh, yeah, very aware--but I'm not going to go there.  (Hence the comment in my original post about not assuming the DM was insane enough to allow Gnome Illusions in this case.)  This is far too broken as it is.

[radionausea]

I'm not going to claim that PF has made some incredible fix to game balance or anything but I note that the "Pathfinder sure balanced out wizards" etc comments are being applied when content from another system entirely are being allowed.  PF doesn't have Earth Spell, Gnome Illusionist substitution levels or even Shadowcraft mages.  This absurd level of power is only possible by mixing two systems together.

[caelic]

True...but backwards compatibility was plugged as a main selling point of PF.  In any event, I don't think it's really news that PF did very little to fix the basic linear-fighters-quadratic-casters imbalance, but this really is more a case of a DM who (IMO) isn't really thinking things through.

I pointed these things out to him; I asked him if he was really sure he wanted to do things this way.  He said "Yes."  That being the case, I see no reason not to craft a character who is as powerful as the DM's chosen parameters permit.

[veekie]

I pointed these things out to him; I asked him if he was really sure he wanted to do things this way.  He said "Yes."  That being the case, I see no reason not to craft a character who is as powerful as the DM's chosen parameters permit.

Well, can't say he wasn't warned. And its still in the realms of playable strong. Just massively so.

[darqueseid]

I'm playing in a pathfinder game with a SCM, but I haven't realized the kind of power your talking about(with the caveat that I'm new to PF so IO don't know all the feats that are available.  Again my DM has allowed splatbook access obviously, but wants me to stick to PF core spells.   

My build as of now is:
wizard illusionist 5/SCM1 (early entry allowed)
feats:
1 heighten spell
1 school focus(illusion)
1 earth sense
3 Earthspell
6 Metamagic school focus(illusion)
9 ??
12 ??

My goal is to mimic the highest lvl spells I can once I get the ability to shadowcast.  The problem is my power level doesn't seem that high right now really, I mean when compared to the melee classes in the party my guy seems to fall short in battles/combats all the time. 
Maybe this is just because I haven't gotten to mimicry yet?  will I notice a marked increase in power when that happens?
with this build I Should be able to mimic a 5th level spells3x a day at 8th level, up to 6th level 3x day at 9th, and 7th level spells 3x a day at 12th...etc etc.
its not doing much for me really, just a level up in spell power...
that being said, while it seems like its GONNA be cool, playing a SCM before mimicry is sucking alot lol... your basically a bad illusionist....

edit arcane thesis and spell perfection don't work in this build until later and I'd have to take prereqs..

[NiteCyper]

I'm playing in a pathfinder game with a SCM, but I haven't realized the kind of power your talking about(with the caveat that I'm new to PF so IO don't know all the feats that are available.  Again my DM has allowed splatbook access obviously, but wants me to stick to PF core spells.   

My build as of now is:
wizard illusionist 5/SCM1 (early entry allowed)
feats:
1 heighten spell
1 school focus(illusion)
1 earth sense
3 Earthspell
6 Metamagic school focus(illusion)
9 ??
12 ??

My goal is to mimic the highest lvl spells I can once I get the ability to shadowcast.  The problem is my power level doesn't seem that high right now really, I mean when compared to the melee classes in the party my guy seems to fall short in battles/combats all the time. 
Maybe this is just because I haven't gotten to mimicry yet?  will I notice a marked increase in power when that happens?
with this build I Should be able to mimic a 5th level spells3x a day at 8th level, up to 6th level 3x day at 9th, and 7th level spells 3x a day at 12th...etc etc.
its not doing much for me really, just a level up in spell power...
that being said, while it seems like its GONNA be cool, playing a SCM before mimicry is sucking alot lol... your basically a bad illusionist....

Maybe you should read Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Wizards: Being a God? Other wizard stuff (unfinished).

The poster below me is right, you're supposed to get a feat every odd level (see the table) (in Pathfinder).

[Aradu]

You don't get a feat every odd level?

[caelic]

Nope.  It would probably be more accurate to describe the game as "A 3.5 game which incorporates PF feats, classes, and spell fixes."

Very few people in the group are keen on a full buy-in to PF, but the DM likes it a lot, so this is his compromise.  I personally think it'd be better to stick with one system--but then again, I personally think that system should be Hackmaster.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, but darqueseid IS playing in a PF game, why isn't he getting a feat every odd level?

And darqueseid, I would drop metamagic school focus, never impressed me much.  I really like Residual Magic tactical feat for a SCM, though the OP's "infinite cantrips as max level spells via Spell Perfection" trick makes that obsolete.  Not everyone will reach 15th level, though.

If your game allows traits, you really should get the one to pick a spell (silent image) and reduce metamagic costs on it by -1, it's a good trait for a SCM, even without abuse to make it a cantrip.

[darqueseid]

well after talking with my DM it looks like i'm playing in a PF/3.5 mash up myself, I guess that's not too uncommon.  The GM is using pathfinder spells, 3.5 progression in xp and feats, and it doesn't appear that he's allowing traits and several other cool things core in pathfinder...

-Funny thing is, the traits system is a flavorful thing that helps to flesh out characters.  It's actually right up this DM's alley, he likes the character hooks, chances for roleplay, etc.   Thanks for pointing them out, I'll keep them in mind as I play more and more pathfinder.

I took MMSF because that was the only way I could see to be able to push heighten up to a level where I could mimic higher level spells.  That is I heighten silent image to 5th level, using MMSF on it so it counts as a 6th level spell, then combined with earth spell it casts as an effective 7th level, so I can use it to mimic a 6th level spell(with a 5th level slot).  I can only do it 3x a day, but without traits it seemed like that was the only way I could manage it.