How powerful are charged magic items meant to be?

[Endarire]

By this, I mean scrolls, potions, wands, and such that you use.  I don't mean transcribing scrolls into a spellbook, etc.

In general, they're quite expensive for the price.  Abilities which don't depend heavily on caster level or save DC (buffs and niche utility spells, mostly) are handy as a scroll.  Lesser vigor and cure light wounds are the standard of wand-based healing.

Still, I think 3.5's designers expected people to use these consumables far more often.  (Consider how many item creation feats there are!)  I don't just mean Artificers and getting super high caster levels via UMD.

Maybe it's me, but I hate using consumables beyond the grade of 'cheap healing stick.'  I'm typically better off selling or disenchanting them.

What about you?

[SolEiji]

I'm a pack rat.  I'm the guy who, when he plays RPGs, ends up at the final boss with 99x Elixers because he dare not use one "until he really needs it".  So you can imagine that when I get consumables, there is much struggle to get me to part with it... either because it's useful but one-shot, or because it's useless and would be better used being sold rather than being consumed.

Things are simply too expensive to buy these things, and making them varies in value.  Wondrous Items cover just about everything you need, so the others practically have no use.

[NiteCyper]

I'm a pack rat.  I'm the guy who, when he plays RPGs, ends up at the final boss with 99x Elixers because he dare not use one "until he really needs it".  So you can imagine that when I get consumables, there is much struggle to get me to part with it...

I wish that the game had an indicator as to how close I was to the end before I got to the end so that I could have used them before I finished the game. Now, I don't want to play it anymore and I got to the end practically without using any consumable. I exploited anyway, so...

I'm typically better off selling or disenchanting [consumables beyond the grade of 'cheap healing stick'].

What do you mean by disenchanting? 

[littha]

Speaking of deus ex, i just finished my second play through. This time without killing anyone.

[Sinfire Titan]

The Deus Ex pic is funny, and very accurate. Players tend to place consumables in the "I should save this for an emergency" category.


I make personal exceptions for a few minor items (Feather Tokens primarily), but I hate using potions (largely because they are more useful when you sell one) or 1/day abilities. I loved the MIC's concept of daily renewed charged items that are dirt-cheap, even if most of those items are underpowered.

[zugschef]

I'm typically better off selling or disenchanting [consumables beyond the grade of 'cheap healing stick'].

What do you mean by disenchanting?

good question...

[rot42]

I'm typically better off selling or disenchanting [consumables beyond the grade of 'cheap healing stick'].

What do you mean by disenchanting?

good question...

Probably using the Retain Essence ability of an Artificer to eat the remaining XP out of the item to add to their craft reserve.

[Rymosrac]

As yet another Deus Ex loving, charged-item-hoarding packrat, I can echo the general sentiment of the thread.

The issue for me is that essentially each use is throwing away an (often nontrivial) permenant resource. Which is why packrats like me find it so much easier to use the X/day items.

Scrolls, potions, and 1-2/day items of course also suffer from the what-if-i-need-it-later syndrome worse than wands due to the smaller number of charges generally available.

It's a difficult balance to strike. If items are potent and expensive, they never get used, being saved for the rainy day that never comes. If they're potent and cheap, or impotent and expensive, the problems are obvious. If they're impotent and inexpensive, as with CL1 wands, then they're only useful when action economy is a nonissue, e.g. out of combat healing.

But a good midpoint should be attainable. I know I'd kill for some halfway lethal grenades, even if they weren't cheap.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

When things get nerfed all the way down to 4E power levels,
the idea that you'd have One  extra Daily ... just one
gets all sorts of dander going.

Bad equation ---> One feat slot X + "parcel" of loot Y = 1 power use of level Z
I think wotc intended this ~equation to be more
mathematically manageable and consistent in 4e.


If a 3e feat slot is worth what non-magic item crafting Feats are worth,
the magic item feats would suck a lot more.
Skill Focus v Scribe Scroll ... or ... Weapon Supremacy v Craft "Candles"
It is somewhat laughable, the range available here.

[Tiltowait]

I think it depends on the item. Scrolls and potions are likely to be sold unless there is nothing better. Wands and other consumables can be useful. Generally though everyone I know prefers charges per day items to charged items that don't recharge. If we have to read the Scroll of Heal to keep going then consider it read.

[Unbeliever]

I just don't really like them.  I have all the hoarding problems, and I don't like them cluttering up my character sheet.  So, for me to even bother with them, they'd need to be pretty awesome. 

One solution people have suggested to me is that scrolls, etc. represent "floating" spell slots or abilities.  So, you can be like "good thing I packed my [scroll you needed right that minute]"  That'd be a big change in the way these things are used in D&D, but I can see the appeal behind it. 

[RobbyPants]

I'm a pack rat.  I'm the guy who, when he plays RPGs, ends up at the final boss with 99x Elixers because he dare not use one "until he really needs it".  So you can imagine that when I get consumables, there is much struggle to get me to part with it... either because it's useful but one-shot, or because it's useless and would be better used being sold rather than being consumed.

This is exactly why it's always going to be impossible to balance charged items. Unless you give them some sort of shelf life, players will just save them up unless they think they need them. Even then, they're often loath to use them. Or, worse yet, they forget they have them because they already planned on putting them in long term storage.

[Kremti]

Well, also the price *has* to be low, I think.

Just like Lesser Vigor wands, those things are good deal because they are cheap, and I think we would be willing to use them more if they are cheap enough.

I am more than content to use a few level 1 scrolls, especially with wizards who *comes* with the scribe feat, making it 12.5g+1exp to make one.  I tend to make a good number of Silent Images and Enlarge persons, and liberally use'em because they are cheap enough.  Once it goes up to level 2+ scrolls that starts to cost 100+ gps...not so much.

So, in general, they are overpriced IMO...

-K

[Thurbane]

I'm a pack rat.  I'm the guy who, when he plays RPGs, ends up at the final boss with 99x Elixers because he dare not use one "until he really needs it".  So you can imagine that when I get consumables, there is much struggle to get me to part with it... either because it's useful but one-shot, or because it's useless and would be better used being sold rather than being consumed.

I'm exactly the same...although I am trying to change.

I was the same back in the old days of scrolling flyer shoot em ups at the arcade - I'd hoard the limited-use bombs or missiles, then get killed with all of them still unused. 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Still, I think 3.5's designers expected people to use these consumables far more often.  (Consider how many item creation feats there are!)  I don't just mean Artificers and getting super high caster levels via UMD.

Not that often.  The amount expected to be used on consumables is equal to the difference between the cumulative suggested wealth/encounter and your expected WBL.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

'Nother angle ...

How often at this point, do C.O. builds include a long and tedious items list?
Carnivore was the clear exception. Otherwise, everyone else is going
by Build + key feats + maybe one tricky Item. Or just the Build.

So items are off in Limbo these days.
Kinda like being on a technology trailing wave.
Fighter says: I got a Sword +2.
Wizard says: I made a Boccob's Book (grin).
Older Wizard says: Look what I got.

[SorO_Lost]

Still, I think 3.5's designers expected people to use these consumables far more often.  (Consider how many item creation feats there are!)  I don't just mean Artificers and getting super high caster levels via UMD.

WBL in fact ignores consumables from your last level. You could have blown your entire 13th level budget on scrolls, but at level 12 you're to have X in gear.

So it can very much be said they did expect you to expend consumables as part of leveling and the DM shouldn't just out right punish you for doing so. Like 2 charges off a wand per encounter is generally almost enough to operate for two levels, which really isn't a big deal.

I'm a pack rat.  I'm the guy who, when he plays RPGs, ends up at the final boss with 99x Elixers because he dare not use one "until he really needs it".  So you can imagine that when I get consumables, there is much struggle to get me to part with it... either because it's useful but one-shot, or because it's useless and would be better used being sold rather than being consumed.

Oh no kidding, I needed more "bank" slots in Diablo just to horde the rejuv potions that were "Baal only", only he is such an easy fight they weren't even used.

It's also one of the reasons I like gishes. Last highest level spell? It's ok, I have ass-kickery to fall back on.

[dipolartech]

'Nother angle ...

How often at this point, do C.O. builds include a long and tedious items list?
Carnivore was the clear exception. Otherwise, everyone else is going
by Build + key feats + maybe one tricky Item. Or just the Build.

So items are off in Limbo these days.
Kinda like being on a technology trailing wave.
Fighter says: I got a Sword +2.
Wizard says: I made a Boccob's Book (grin).
Older Wizard says: Look what I got.

I'd actually like to fix that up and as I explore the possibilities I'd like to build up handbook on items for various progressions. Though I don't intend to look just at enhancement bonus items/gear but also group support and action economy improving gear as well. And stuff like that Hevard's sleeping bag.

[RobbyPants]

WBL in fact ignores consumables from your last level. You could have blown your entire 13th level budget on scrolls, but at level 12 you're to have X in gear.

Do you know where it says that? I've heard this before but never found it.

The closest I've found is comparing running the numbers for treasure per encounter and multiplying it to the WBL charts. I think there's about a 10% fudge factor there, or something, which is likely to account for consumables, inns, booze, and hookers. Or their math is stupid, which wouldn't surprise me either. If you fight mixed groups of monsters instead of one CR X every fight, you get different amounts of treasure. If you fight just NPCs or just animals, you get a widely different amount, too.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

WBL in fact ignores consumables from your last level. You could have blown your entire 13th level budget on scrolls, but at level 12 you're to have X in gear.

Um, actually, WBL assumes you've used some consumables.  Specifically, the difference between (14 x Average treasure of Newlevel) and (WBL_Newlevel-WBL_Oldlevel)

Treasure per Encounter
Table 3–5: Treasure has been created so that if PCs face enough
encounters of their own level to gain a level, they will have also
gained enough treasure to keep them apace with the wealth-by-
level information found in Table 5–1: Character Wealth by Level
(page 135). Just as gaining a level requires between thirteen and
fourteen encounters of a party’s level, so too fourteen average rolls
on the table at the party’s level will get them the treasure they
need to gain the appropriate amount for the next highest level,
assuming that the PCs expend some resources such as potions and
scrolls during those encounters