Author Topic: D&D 5e: For real this time?  (Read 352001 times)

Offline Bauglir

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #580 on: March 23, 2013, 03:18:52 PM »
Yes, that is exactly it's place in the rules. What I'm complaining about is that I foresee WotC deciding that this mechanic "fixed" the Fighter and associated classes like Paizo decided they'd "fixed" them in Pathfinder. Paizo thought the solution was to add raw, simple numbers, to make them keep up, WotC will think that the solution will be added complexity to give them the tactical options they need. WotC is closer, but complexity isn't inherently good and I'm not seeing mechanics that justify it.

I really do need to actually read the packet, though, my information is badly out of date. This is mostly pessimistic whining.

Offline Libertad

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #581 on: March 23, 2013, 06:25:36 PM »
Yes, that is exactly it's place in the rules. What I'm complaining about is that I foresee WotC deciding that this mechanic "fixed" the Fighter and associated classes like Paizo decided they'd "fixed" them in Pathfinder. Paizo thought the solution was to add raw, simple numbers, to make them keep up, WotC will think that the solution will be added complexity to give them the tactical options they need. WotC is closer, but complexity isn't inherently good and I'm not seeing mechanics that justify it.

Bring back Tome of Battle!  It didn't fix things completely, but it's the best hope we've got if WotC is throwing out all the 4th Edition ideas for martial character concepts.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #582 on: March 23, 2013, 06:52:04 PM »
I wonder what it'd take for a 5th edition PDF to appear in my inbox...

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #583 on: March 24, 2013, 12:24:05 AM »
They're hardly inherently bad. They're only bad if they're supposed to be Wizards' way of letting Fighters have nice things on par with 3.5E casters, and they're implemented too widely (as you mentioned), rendering them generic and giving the designers too much leeway to attach to them things that have no business being a consumable resource. Unfortunately, I feel like WotC will assume exactly those things are the way to go.

It's a consumable resource, but it refreshes EVERY TURN, meaning all it really does is prevent the fighter from using a ton of different reactions in the same turn, since many of them don't use actions at all, but DO take dice.

I'm fairly certain that it's no longer every turn, and I'm fairly certain that only fighters use them now.
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Offline Eldritch_Lord

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #584 on: March 24, 2013, 07:10:15 AM »
I wonder what it'd take for a 5th edition PDF to appear in my inbox...

It's not your inbox, but you can go here, click the button, and register for the playtest, and then you can download the latest packet and will get an email whenever a new one comes out.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #585 on: March 26, 2013, 04:21:03 PM »
So... their NDA says: "Not with standing the foregoing, you may publicly discuss your thoughts regarding the D&D Next Playtest Materials and your playtesting experience." Which is awesome.

To start things off I applaud WotC for realizing 4th sucks balls and going back to 3rd. However 5th is a little under whelming. I can see where they are going, boil things down and simplify them. However they have all but removed the level element. Level 20 feels like level 1 in all but the Class mechanic. And even then it depends on who you are. Let me give you an example;
A. D&D:N is design for twenty levels of advancement.
B. You gain Feats at the 1st, 3rd, 6th, and 9th levels.
C. You start with four Skills and at 7th, 12th, and 17th level you obtain a new skill or upgrade the die (d6->d8->d10->d12).
D. Anything over a +1 Armor/Weapon is a unique item.
E. You don't really gain numerical bonuses, you reroll a single die.
F. You cannot have more than a 20 in your Ability Score, this a hard cap. And you can start with a 19.
G. Attack Bonuses are rescaled to +5 over twenty levels, for all classes.
H. Caster Level doesn't exist.
I. Unless we're talking Cover, then you gain +2, +5, or 'can't be attacked'.
J. And being drunk, you take 1d6 less damage from everything ever.
K. Save system rewritten to use all six ability scores, good luck there.

If you want to feel special because you 'capped' your character. Play 4th Edition. Yeah, I went there. Feat progression only happens in the first half of the game. The difference obtain for dedicated focus in a Skill is a +3 to your average roll. Proficiency, Flanking, Blind, Frightened etc are all the same mechanic now, roll twice and take greater/lesser result, and there is no stacking them. CL is absent form the game, durations are based on concentration so you can never really turn someone to stone, just hold them still while your party chips them down. And if you want to deal more damage with your blaster spells you'll need to expend a higher Spell Slot. As if God-Wizard wasn't the true style to play already. At the same time, they abolished the system where you could choose to buy a +5 or +3 and Holy Sword, instead you buy unique Magical Items. Because if you want to see +3 Armor, you're going to have to spend $30 bucks on Complete Ripoff. Another huge change is capped Ability Scores, adventurers can have up to 20, under PB you can't have more than 15 but you can still roll an 18 (wtf?) and then obtain a +1 racial bonus. Where 4th standardized progression and required you to have nothing less than a starting 16 and focus on progressing it, 5th doesn't even know what the fuck to do with them. Actually, I may have hit the dot right there.

5th is a rehash of 3rd & 4th, picking the worst traits of both.
3rd has three Saves that could have super high values? 4th has one and you're lucky to get bonuses in it.
5th's answer: Have six. Where are your bonuses now!?
3rd's Skill suffer from too many so it's hard to do even trivial stuff? 4th, everyone gets bonuses in everything as they level.
5th's answer: Everyone sucks, all the frigging time.
3rd let you Bullrush creatures into a wall smeared with glue. 4th had a generic X[W]+YdZ damager that can slide a mini around.
5th's answer: You need to take a Feat to do that.
3rd had Chaotic Neutral PCs acting drunk. 4th was under 21 and couldn't legally drink.
5th's answer: Everyone is drunk!
3rd's Spellcasters were epic! 4th's were too but required you to buy splat books.
5th's answer: Casters should be cool, but how do we do this?
3rd had Cleric Domains which gave more Spell Choice and additional benefits. 4th had more At-Will powers.
5th's answer: You get one Domain, but it's less of a Domain and more like a Daily power.
3rd RAW vs RAI for moar power! 4th, RAW shall be plain, be balanced, and be boring.
5th's answer: I hope an editor gets hired soon. <- (example, astral projection is you+8 people. It's uncastable in small parties...)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2013, 05:05:17 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline oslecamo

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #586 on: March 26, 2013, 04:27:32 PM »
To be honest, back in 1e and 2e, numerical bonus were a lot harder to come by as well, and there was indeed a lot less numeric discrepancy between low and high level characters due to that.

3e went a lot overboard on how easy it's to boost numbers and stack stuff, and that's something that really needs to be fixed if you ask me.

4e actually also suffered from that problem to a degree, where you wanted to squeeze out as much numeric bonus as you could as you leveled up.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #587 on: March 26, 2013, 05:47:14 PM »
I have no clue on 1st but I have ideas on 2nd via downloaded PDFs and extensive play in the old Baldur's Gate & Icewind Dale.

In 2nd some Ability Scores had were extremely powerful even if it were increased by a single point. Eg, Elven Wizard reads a Tome (yes they have those), his 20 Int means he can learn every single Wizard Spell rather than X per level. 14+ Con was worthless unless you were a key Class, and if you were those bonuses improved at an even faster rate. And 18 Str was such a big deal you had to roll a d%, netting a +1 bonus was possible and rewarded you massively for such.

Class wise, Fighters attacked more often and got better at doing it, Rogues dealt more back stab damage and became significantly more successful with their thieving skills, a Wizard's spells improved with their level so they dealt more and lasted longer, everyone got Save boosts for leveling up. And this edition was front loaded and fundamentally designed to taper down once you got past the first ten levels. Mindful that's in a Class perspective, IE 11th level of Fighter sound boring? Go pick up 6 levels of Cleric then.

3rd had options. Not necessarily Bonuses, but options. It has a wide can do attitude and what you could do exceeded it's own expectations. 4th readdressed this and tried liner scaling. PCs progressed at half rate and have to optimize for proficiency. As a result, level by level snapshots remained semi-fair to what they were expected to go against, but clearly an 11th level Fighter is superior to his 3rd level counterpart. 5th's idea was to boiled things down even further. Instead of forced comparable numbers, they gutted the numbers. As a result, level 20 feels like level 17 which feels like level 4.

Judging by the huge mismatched butchery to 5th & update notes I'd say the problem is no one knows what the hell they are doing. Like while Armor & Attack doesn't progress, HP & mundane damage do. While Feats don't progress, accessible Spell Levels do. It's why it makes no difference if you're Invisible or Flanking a creature, but Cover has three levels to it awarding a valued AC bonus. Even Resistance/Damage_Reduction is short coined into taking 1/2 damage formula, but being drunk reduces damage by random 1d6. It's a cluster fuck and why? Well judging by their update notes they don't have a design in mind as they have apparently redesigned integral systems (melee damage, cleric/paladin divines, rogues & skills). It's as if one half the team is over simplifying the rules, and the other half are the results of a GitP & PF merger. And some how they came up with something that feels like it's trying to abolish the level system and it doesn't know what the hell an RPG is supposed to do.

As noted, I like the direction. It feels like D&D and it's meant to be simpler than 3rd. I can agree with those things. But they are boiling the wrong elements down. The rant on levels is just the easiest thing to explain, and also the part they need to revamp in the next update.

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #588 on: March 27, 2013, 01:52:10 AM »
I think a slower progression could be a good thing if D&DN is going to be around a while; IF they plan on supporting higher levels.  If a 20th level fighter has +5 BaB, then an 80th level fighter would naturally have +20.  That gives us 80 whole levels to play in before the system starts breaking down.  They just need to spread out the spell advancement, and come on, a wizard gets the same bonus to attacks as the fighter?

20 levels of e6? Hrm...

More levels also leaves more design space to distinguish between classes without later classes simply trumping the core classes(see factotum vs rogue); although, some power creep is to be expected if we are expected to purchase splats.
 I just hope they make it like 3.x in that the game is like a tool kit and you build a character/story/world with whichever pieces you want to use.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 01:55:42 AM by JohnnyMayHymn »
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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #589 on: March 27, 2013, 11:22:27 AM »
You know, I didn't even think of Multiclassing (no rules on it yet).

A quick comparison.
Barbarian 19th/Fighter 1 would have 6 Rages per day vs Barbarian's 20th level unlimited amount.
Barbarian 19th/Fighter 1 would have x4 damage & two +1d6 to AC/Damage effects vs 20th level Barbarian's x5 damage.
Barbarian 19th/Fighter 1 would have a Bonus Martial Feat vs Barbarian's cannot die from HP damage while Raging.

And for a little more detail, how about Monk dipping Barb? Monk 20th sets your Ability Scores to 20 for 20 AC, +5 damage, really nice Saves, etc. Since Unarmed Progression stops at level 1 (see previous rants) this means the Monk deals 1d6+5*5 (42 avg)damage. Barb dip? As noted +1 Racial and either Roll an 18 or PB a 15 means you're currently not going to get over a +4 bonus and Rage applies to one roll, it's 1d6+4*4+2 (32 avg). Other traits? Barb can grant him self an Advantage to his Attack Roll (2d20 take best) but it grants his Enemy as well, while Raging that 1/day he has Resistance (-50%) to mundane but less AC/Saves.

Dipping pretty much comes off as a penalty. >.>
However, split Multiclassing currently may work. Recall the game is front loaded. Maybe the Fighter does gain more Combat Dice or the Rogue does gain more Sneak Attack, but you gain everything by the 9th level in most other areas. A Monk 10 / Fighter 10 would have x3 damage, but capped Ki & Martial Feat Progression. I might play around with this later and see what I can come up with, it's a shame Deadly Strikes says weapon or I'd stare down a Wizard/Fighter.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 11:24:36 AM by SorO_Lost »

Offline bhu

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #590 on: March 27, 2013, 08:20:54 PM »
Soro's review is definitely dampening any enthusiasm I have for this...

Offline zioth

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #591 on: March 27, 2013, 09:43:33 PM »
I could write my review from scratch, but it's easier to just argue with everything SorO said. :)


Level 20 feels like level 1 in all but the Class mechanic.

It does seem like they didn't fill out the levels. I like the way 3E and, to a greater extent, Pathfinder, grant new, interesting abilities every 1-3 levels to most classes. It's possible that they just haven't written this part yet. On the other hand, I think one of the major flaws of every other edition of D&D is that a high-level character so vastly outpowers a low-level character. In my opinion, it should be very dificult for a party of level 5 characters to take on a level 15 opponent, but possible. In 3E, it's just not possible.


Quote
C. You start with four Skills and at 7th, 12th, and 17th level you obtain a new skill or upgrade the die (d6->d8->d10->d12).

I don't like the new skill system. Two characters with the same class and ability scores have the exact same skill modifiers. Rogue A will pretty much always look exactly like Rogue B. Even the character who's best at a skill is only marginally better than the character who's the worst at it. I know 3E skills are often criticized, but I think it's one of the best concepts in the system. It really allows you to make your character unique.

Quote
D. Anything over a +1 Armor/Weapon is a unique item.

This is something I really appreciate. It's not just weapons and armor -- every item is unique. There are no magic item shops, and there are very few simple items which just grant a bonus to something. 3E is all about maxing out your bonuses -- buying the most boring items you can afford so your character will be that much more powerful. 5E makes magic items interesting again.


Quote
H. Caster Level doesn't exist.

In some ways, I don't like this, but it's a nice simplification, and makes low-level play easier. If the spell always has a duration of 1 minute, no matter what your level, it's always equally useful. High level caster still get better spells, so caster level still exists to that extent.


Quote
K. Save system rewritten to use all six ability scores, good luck there.

I like this. In 3E, it's too easy to have no weaknesses. I like every character to have some weakness.


Quote
Because if you want to see +3 Armor, you're going to have to spend $30 bucks on Complete Ripoff.

That seems overly cynical. If a DM wants +3 armor in his game, he can just add it to the game. Sure, Complete Ripoff has been WotC's and TSR's primary money-making strategy since the 2E options books, but the lack of +3 armor is not what's going to sell those books.


Quote
3rd's Skill suffer from too many so it's hard to do even trivial stuff? 4th, everyone gets bonuses in everything as they level.
5th's answer: Everyone sucks, all the frigging time.

Some of your complaints, like this one, don't take into account that these are two seperate games. You're not going to play in a campaign that has both 3E characters and 5E characters. 5E is a lower-power, weaker-magic-item game. That doesn't make it a bad game, just a different one.


Quote
3rd had Cleric Domains which gave more Spell Choice and additional benefits. 4th had more At-Will powers.
5th's answer: You get one Domain, but it's less of a Domain and more like a Daily power.

In other words, 3E and 5E are different. This doesn't seem like a real complaint. You happen to like the 3E domains, but they don't really exist in 5E, so I guess that's fine.



I'm not sure what to think about the advantage/disadvantage system. It might play well, but it feels like an oversimplification. Optimizers are just going to figure out how to always give their characters advantage, and always give opponents disadvantage. Then they've won the game. While it's harder to keep track of and can slow down combat, I think I prefer 3E's system of scalling numerical bonuses.

Offline PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #592 on: March 27, 2013, 10:42:35 PM »
You're not being entirely fair to Soro, but that's fine.

they don't have a design in mind
Bingo.

Here's what they need to do. Take a look at comparable systems across editions: Multiclassing, skills, feats, xp, class features, etc. Be blatant when listing x is good, y is bad. Then cobble them together. Don't hide what is good or bad, throw playtesters at whatever stuck last revision and see where things shape from there.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #593 on: March 28, 2013, 08:08:33 PM »

I could write my review from scratch, but it's easier to just argue with everything SorO said. :)


 ;)
OK that's funny right there ...  :lmao

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Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #594 on: March 28, 2013, 08:45:48 PM »
;)
OK that's funny right there ...  :lmao

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I laughed too, but he agreed to about half the things I said anyway.

However, do note 3rd has thousands of unique magic items. And yet, you can Enhance your own. In fact, UA gives you Item Familiar & Ancestral Weapons to really custom it. And if you want unique lore that requires side quests? Weapons of Legacy is the book for you. 3rd gave you freedom of choice and plenty of static uniques. Is it too much to ask of 5th to try to do the same?

Plus you don't need to banhammer Flaming Frost Hammer because +2d6 damage scares the pee out of you anyway, srsly.
Edit - Actually, their Flaming weapon deals +2d6, but no bonus to Attack/Damage making it a +0 sword, lulz.

Edit 2 - Actually really read their Vorpel weapon this time around. It's a "Legendary" +1 Bastard Sword, when Attuned it becomes +3 and on a Critical Hit (natural 20) you can roll your Attack again. If successful it deals an additional 6d8 damage. If that second attack is also a Critical Hit AND they have less than 150 HP you chop off their head. Yeah, not the work of the simplify department at all huh?

Edit 3 - Also Otto's Irresistible Dance has a Will Save. And they can still attack you while they dance.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2013, 09:03:36 PM by SorO_Lost »

Offline zioth

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #595 on: March 29, 2013, 11:56:20 AM »
They clearly have some work to do on the spells. I haven't read the most recent packet, but I remember that in the last packet, Wish could create 25,000gp items, with the only cost being that you couldn't cast any more spells that day. So that's a free 25,000gp per day during off time.

Yes, 3E gives you options with magic items, but it has a lot of problems:
- The system encourages you to give a large number of items to PCs.
- The system encourages magic item shops, which takes a lot of the excitement out of acquiring items.
- It's often more beneficial to get boring items (belt of giant strength, ring of protection etc) than interesting items.

I tend to be biased towards low-magic games, so obviously 5E's system is more appealing to me. In 2E, finding a magic item was something really special. They were rare enough that you wouldn't just sell the item -- you'd figure out how to make use of it. In 3E, you just have your average-wealth-by-level worth of items and that's it. Equipping your character like that is fun, of course, but it's a different kind of fun.

Really, we just have to accept that 5E and 3E are not the same game. Rather than asking, "how does each little detail compare to 3E in isolation," maybe we should be asking, "does 5E look like a fun game?" I agree that it has a lot of flaws in its current state, but I also think it has a lot of potential.

Offline Bauglir

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #596 on: March 29, 2013, 12:54:41 PM »
Yeah, I'm actually a fan of anything that reduces a PC's resemblance to a Christmas tree, so I think a different perspective from 3E is a good thing. Obviously the actual rules need tweaking, but at least they're trying. I don't think they're banhammering a flaming frost hammer because it's too powerful.

Offline zioth

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #597 on: March 29, 2013, 02:48:48 PM »
Yeah, I'm actually a fan of anything that reduces a PC's resemblance to a Christmas tree, so I think a different perspective from 3E is a good thing.

That is something people don't usually think about when they play. I mean, most magic items are made of valuable gemstones and stuff. Put on a crystal mask, a robe of eyes, a hand of glory, and throw in a few ioun stones, and you look pretty ridiculous, not to mention very, very rich. Now walk up to that commoner and start a conversation, and wonder why he's deciding between cowering in awe, fleeing in terror and rolling on the ground laughing. Even sillier is druids with wilding clasps, who think they can still get away with pretending to be an animal.

In a slightly more socially realistic game, magic items would be only for adventuring -- something like a superhero costume. You can't walk around town blatently wearing magic items.

Okay, I think I'm going off topic now (wait. can you go off-topic in a thread with almost 600 posts?)

Offline ksbsnowowl

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #598 on: March 29, 2013, 04:04:42 PM »
Yeah, I'm actually a fan of anything that reduces a PC's resemblance to a Christmas tree, so I think a different perspective from 3E is a good thing. Obviously the actual rules need tweaking, but at least they're trying. I don't think they're banhammering a flaming frost hammer because it's too powerful.
You know, this just gave me an idea.

Give all your PC's the numerical benefits of Vow of Poverty (but not the bonus feats, not needing to eat, etc, and not the actual RP-requirements of the vow), and then just tone down the magic items.  The VoP benefits would just be assumed to be a part of leveling, and then the items they get will be unique and special, or maybe change PC wealth by level into equaling NPC wealth by level.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 04:09:30 PM by ksbsnowowl »

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #599 on: March 29, 2013, 04:28:04 PM »

Okay, I think I'm going off topic now (wait. can you go off-topic in a thread with almost 600 posts?)

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Are they really getting spazzed over +2d6 ??
 :tongue
I mean that's the difference between 1st and 3rd levels.
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