D&D 5e: For real this time?

[RedWarlock]

This is why demon lords are lords, because they tend to have demonic *followers*. Let the hordes take on other hordes, and let the champions take on the champions. Focused fire doesn't really work in real-world situations as well as it does in tabletop and RTSs.

[Raineh Daze]

This is why demon lords are lords, because they tend to have demonic *followers*. Let the hordes take on other hordes, and let the champions take on the champions. Focused fire doesn't really work in real-world situations as well as it does in tabletop and RTSs.

And they have followers because... they are by far and away the strongest, so those below them can't hope to take them out.

Rather undercut if they can be defeated by a tiny group of peasants.

[oslecamo]

And they have followers because... they are by far and away the strongest, so those below them can't hope to take them out.

You're claiming that leaders in D&D never get backstabbed by their underlings?

Those below have hope of taking the one above. But since the odds aren't in their favor in a straight out fight, they'll usually rather live as a servant than challenge their master and risk a nasty death.

Or it's simply magic. Bindings/summons/pokemons all take orders from someone who isn't necessarily stronger than them, many time they're actually weaker.

Rather undercut if they can be defeated by a tiny group of peasants.

Since when are thousands of peasants a "tiny" group?

Don't have the latest bestiary, but last time I checked Asmodeus has a frightening aura with range "everybody I can see".
Every round he drops two auto-kill attacks plus a flame strike that roasts some more peasants.

Then 1/3 of the rounds he also can summon pit fiends  that drop fireballs and bash in some more peasant skulls.

The peasants are dying in droves every round, and Asmodeus Devil Army just keeps growing. You'll have to bring in a LOT of peasants to take him down.

[Raineh Daze]

And they have followers because... they are by far and away the strongest, so those below them can't hope to take them out.

You're claiming that leaders in D&D never get backstabbed by their underlings?

Those below have hope of taking the one above. But since the odds aren't in their favor in a straight out fight, they'll usually rather live as a servant than challenge their master and risk a nasty death.

... things like Orcus and Demogorgon? Challenged or even remotely threatened by the teeming masses beneath them?

Rather undercut if they can be defeated by a tiny group of peasants.

Since when are thousands of peasants a "tiny" group?

When you're talking about demon princes? Minuscule. A speck of dirt that shouldn't even be worth acknowledging.

Don't have the latest bestiary, but last time I checked Asmodeus has a frightened aura with range "everybody I can see".
Every round he drops three auto-kill attacks plus a flame strike that roasts some more peasants.

Then 1/3 of the rounds he also can summon pit fiends  that drop fireballs and bash in some more peasant skulls.

The peasants are dying in droves every round, and Asmodeus Devil Army just keeps growing. You'll have to bring in a LOT of peasants to take him down.

This reminds me that it is possible for a peasant to befriend Asmodeus with about as much ease as a 20th level character very, very into diplomacy and politics. :/

There is a problem if 'bring in lots of peasants' is an option for 'take out the most powerful Devil'.

[oslecamo]

Since when are thousands of peasants a "tiny" group?

When you're talking about demon princes? Minuscule. A speck of dirt that shouldn't even be worth acknowledging.

Wonder then why they try so hard to get those cultist groups going right?

This reminds me that it is possible for a peasant to befriend Asmodeus with about as much ease as a 20th level character very, very into diplomacy and politics. :/

There is a problem if 'bring in lots of peasants' is an option for 'take out the most powerful Devil'.

I didn't see you complaining when Sauron came up with the plan "bring in lots of goblins and orcs" as an option for taking over Middle Earth.

Then Sauron himself got taken out by a counter humie rush.

Proceeded by being finished off by "bring in lots of hobbits fat children".

[Raineh Daze]

Since when are thousands of peasants a "tiny" group?

When you're talking about demon princes? Minuscule. A speck of dirt that shouldn't even be worth acknowledging.

Wonder then why they try so hard to get those cultist groups going right?

Constant failure is embarrassing? Fun diversion? It's not as if demonic cults' main foe is supposed to be a tide of farmers.

This reminds me that it is possible for a peasant to befriend Asmodeus with about as much ease as a 20th level character very, very into diplomacy and politics. :/

There is a problem if 'bring in lots of peasants' is an option for 'take out the most powerful Devil'.

I didn't see you complaining when Sauron came up with the plan "bring in lots of goblins and orcs" as an option for taking over Middle Earth.

Then Sauron himself got taken out by a counter humie rush.

Proceeded by being finished off by "bring in lots of hobbits fat children".

... why would I complain that a guy was using a huge army to conquer a kingdom? What logical sense would that make? Hell, he's hardly on the same level of power as I was talking about, seeing as the strongest anyone gets in LotR is about level five. Still made a pretty good attempt to turn the tide of battle until he had his hand cut off, which was a bit of a downer for him.

Also, the Last Alliance of Elves and Men is basically taking as many highish levelled soldiers as you can  and using them against what is basically a nigh endless tide of level 1's. Now, who won that fight? Was it sheer numbers? Nope, so I am, of course, perfectly fine with this.

Being defeated by not being confronted directly because that would be suicide? About as much as a pair of level 1's could hope for, and they got very lucky.

Anyway, LotR isn't a very good comparison for 'peasants can defeat something that should challenge a party of level 20's'. :/

My issue would be if, say, the Shire picked a fight with Sauron at the height of his power and won. You know, the peaceful, idyllic community of food-obsessed midgets.

[brujon]

Nitpick: The strongest any of the MC gets is level 5 - excepting Gandalf. Elrond is most definitely NOT level 5. In the Silmarillion and then in the first War of the Ring he shows fighting prowess waaaaay beyond anything anyone can do. Same goes for Galadriel, who was around since the time of the first elves, and lived for a long time in Valinor before coming back to Middle-Earth, and she's considered one of the wisest beings still alive in ME in the LoTR era. The spider which i always forget the name of is totally unappropriate as an encounter for the hobbits, being infinitely stronger than them, who basically just kill her because they happened to have the exact items needed to kill her. She's definitely not a CR5 encounter... One of the worst things Tolkien did, IMO :|. I digress. There are several other much stronger characters than level 5, but for the MC's? 5 is about right.

[oslecamo]

Wonder then why they try so hard to get those cultist groups going right?

Constant failure is embarrassing? Fun diversion? It's not as if demonic cults' main foe is supposed to be a tide of farmers.

Thousands of farmers-"A speck of dirt that shouldn't even be worth acknowledging."
A dozen farmers found some dark scriptures-"Good evening gentlemen, how shall we amuse ourselves tonight?"

... why would I complain that a guy was using a huge army to conquer a kingdom? What logical sense would that make? Hell, he's hardly on the same level of power as I was talking about, seeing as the strongest anyone gets in LotR is about level five. Still made a pretty good attempt to turn the tide of battle until he had his hand cut off, which was a bit of a downer for him.

...Only Level Five?

Did you miss the whole armie of treants? The war trolls? Stone giants? Or perhaps Tom Bombadill, the guy that basically does as he pleases?

Sauron himself is stated multiple times in the Silmarion as basically being the baddest and strongest around, and everybody that challenges him 1 on 1 gets crushed to a pulp whitout doing much worst than a scratch to him. And there's quite a bit of challengers over the centuries.

So yes, Sauron "I eat heroes for breakfast and stand in the frontline of armies when you have thousands of elite archers" can and is overwhelmed by throwing him much lower level guys until they get enough lucky hits in.

Also, the Last Alliance of Elves and Men is basically taking as many highish levelled soldiers as you can  and using them against what is basically a nigh endless tide of level 1's. Now, who won that fight? Was it sheer numbers? Nope, so I am, of course, perfectly fine with this.

Go check the fluff again. The elves went ask help from the humies because they basically were the only ones that could match the orc numbers. Including managing to swamp Sauron himself despite he greater cleaving kings.

Being defeated by not being confronted directly because that would be suicide? About as much as a pair of level 1's could hope for, and they got very lucky.

Anyway, LotR isn't a very good comparison for 'peasants can defeat something that should challenge a party of level 20's'. :/

My issue would be if, say, the Shire picked a fight with Sauron at the height of his power and won. You know, the peaceful, idyllic community of food-obsessed midgets.

Point is, the idyllic community of food-obsessed midgets played a key role on defeating a giant floating eye that can see over miles and commands zillions of orcs/goblins and wraiths that ride zombie dragons and war trolls. An enemy so fearsome the elves themselves are legging it to the other side of the world, and they state not even that may be enough to Stop Sauron's advance. And you consider them a speck of dust not worth noticing. Well, keep watch only for the giants and you'll be devoured by the ants as they say.

[Raineh Daze]

Wonder then why they try so hard to get those cultist groups going right?

Constant failure is embarrassing? Fun diversion? It's not as if demonic cults' main foe is supposed to be a tide of farmers.

Thousands of farmers-"A speck of dirt that shouldn't even be worth acknowledging."
A dozen farmers found some dark scriptures-"Good evening gentlemen, how shall we amuse ourselves tonight?"

I meant as a threat. As pawns? Oh, sure, always good to have more pawns, no matter how inconsequential they are. And hey, they might actually do something right.

... why would I complain that a guy was using a huge army to conquer a kingdom? What logical sense would that make? Hell, he's hardly on the same level of power as I was talking about, seeing as the strongest anyone gets in LotR is about level five. Still made a pretty good attempt to turn the tide of battle until he had his hand cut off, which was a bit of a downer for him.

...Only Level Five?

Did you miss the whole armie of treants? The war trolls? Stone giants? Or perhaps Tom Bombadill, the guy that basically does as he pleases?

Sauron himself is stated multiple times in the Silmarion as basically being the baddest and strongest around, and everybody that challenges him 1 on 1 gets crushed to a pulp whitout doing much worst than a scratch to him. And there's quite a bit of challengers over the centuries.

Actually, he's still below Melkor/Morgoth, for all that he's probably the most powerful of the Maia. Anyway... uh, Gandalf, Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas? They are, as it is, not really above level 5. And they're the best the world has to offer. Hell, Lord of the Rings is the go-to example for how you can still have epic tales without getting to high levels.

Bombadil may or may not be Eru Iluvatar, which would literally make him God. 

So yes, Sauron "I eat heroes for breakfast and stand in the frontline of armies when you have thousands of elite archers" can and is overwhelmed by throwing him much lower level guys until they get enough lucky hits in.

A) Given the setting as it stands, Sauron is maybe level 10 at most.
B) The 'much lower level guys' that actually finished him off were the strongest of elves and men, and only one of those that actually fought him survived. See, this isn't so bad--it's the same thing as a party of adventurers beating a stronger foe. If it was the hobbits taking on Melkor before he squandered all his power, and winning? Yeah, that's a problem.
C) I think he was defeated once before the hand accident.

Also, the Last Alliance of Elves and Men is basically taking as many highish levelled soldiers as you can  and using them against what is basically a nigh endless tide of level 1's. Now, who won that fight? Was it sheer numbers? Nope, so I am, of course, perfectly fine with this.

Go check the fluff again. The elves went ask help from the humies because they basically were the only ones that could match the orc numbers. Including managing to swamp Sauron himself despite he greater cleaving kings.

Uh... the fluff is that there weren't that many men either, because these are the Numenoreans and their home had just blown up, and this was only a comparatively small fraction. What they did have is a bloodline and nobility that make them much, much better than other races of men, and these are the exiles at the height of their power. Yeah, the Last Alliance had huge numbers--but that's pretty much the main thing about orcs. They get ridiculously huge armies easily.

Being defeated by not being confronted directly because that would be suicide? About as much as a pair of level 1's could hope for, and they got very lucky.

Anyway, LotR isn't a very good comparison for 'peasants can defeat something that should challenge a party of level 20's'. :/

My issue would be if, say, the Shire picked a fight with Sauron at the height of his power and won. You know, the peaceful, idyllic community of food-obsessed midgets.

Point is, the idyllic community of food-obsessed midgets played a key role on defeating a giant floating eye that can see over miles and commands zillions of orcs/goblins and wraiths that ride zombie dragons and war trolls. An enemy so fearsome the elves themselves are legging it to the other side of the world, and they state not even that may be enough to Stop Sauron's advance. And you consider them a speck of dust not worth noticing. Well, keep watch only for the giants and you'll be devoured by the ants as they say.

Sauron's not a giant floating eye, for a start. Evidence from Gollum way back at the beginning of the story mentions a  hand missing a finger.

And yes, they played a role. Well done them. I'm not denying that.

The issue is with mechanics that make it perfectly acceptable for the Shire to, say, take on Sauron with sticks and stones. Unathletic, no natural advantages, no combat skill--they'll still win. Or against the Balrog. Hell, if one of the Valar stopped by for tea, them too. That doesn't work.

[brujon]

The way i interpreted the Ring and Sauron, is like a Lich with his Phylactery. As long as the Ring exists, he will too, and he will slowly become whole again. What happened in LoTR is that Sauron knew the Ring was on the verge of being rediscovered, and he was already doing something. He assumed his persona as the Necromancer once more, reactivated the fortress of Dol Goldur, which is in Legola's forest, Mirkwood, btw, and that's before LoTR, way back when Bilbo was still playing riddles with Gollum. The reason Gandalf didn't go with the Dwarves was because he, Saruman, and some other folks who are not pointed out specifically, went to Dol Goldur to drive the Necromancer out. And Sauron did leave weakened from that fight, which is why he doesn't interfere directly in LoTR. Saruman was also into the whole scheme back then, and subtly helped keep the Necromancer's identity as Sauron a secret, and helped him not get crushed in that battle - if both Gandalf and Saruman had faced him as weak as he was back then, he wouldn't have had the strength to muster his army in the LoTR saga. He retreated back to Mordor in order to conserve his strength and prepare his army, but he DID have a physical form. When he left Dol Goldur, he also reactivated the Ringwraiths, who left Minas Morgul in order to prepare the terrain, especially the Witch King. Back then, he weakend the Dwarves by attacking Khazad-Dûm, and creating conflict in the Iron Mountains, so the dwarves would be weakened and couldn't intervene like they did before. They were also weakened after the whole incident with Smaug.

Actually, 90% of the really INTERESTING things happened behind the scenes in LotR. Some of this stuff is in the Letters, others were remnants of unfinished work... But Sauron was MUCH more cunning than LotR makes him out to be. He was preparing literally for millenia for this.

[Raineh Daze]

The way i interpreted the Ring and Sauron, is like a Lich with his Phylactery. As long as the Ring exists, he will too, and he will slowly become whole again. What happened in LoTR is that Sauron knew the Ring was on the verge of being rediscovered, and he was already doing something. He assumed his persona as the Necromancer once more, reactivated the fortress of Dol Goldur, which is in Legola's forest, Mirkwood, btw, and that's before LoTR, way back when Bilbo was still playing riddles with Gollum. The reason Gandalf didn't go with the Dwarves was because he, Saruman, and some other folks who are not pointed out specifically, went to Dol Goldur to drive the Necromancer out. And Sauron did leave weakened from that fight, which is why he doesn't interfere directly in LoTR. Saruman was also into the whole scheme back then, and subtly helped keep the Necromancer's identity as Sauron a secret, and helped him not get crushed in that battle - if both Gandalf and Saruman had faced him as weak as he was back then, he wouldn't have had the strength to muster his army in the LoTR saga. He retreated back to Mordor in order to conserve his strength and prepare his army, but he DID have a physical form. When he left Dol Goldur, he also reactivated the Ringwraiths, who left Minas Morgul in order to prepare the terrain, especially the Witch King. Back then, he weakend the Dwarves by attacking Khazad-Dûm, and creating conflict in the Iron Mountains, so the dwarves would be weakened and couldn't intervene like they did before. They were also weakened after the whole incident with Smaug.

Actually, 90% of the really INTERESTING things happened behind the scenes in LotR. Some of this stuff is in the Letters, others were remnants of unfinished work... But Sauron was MUCH more cunning than LotR makes him out to be. He was preparing literally for millenia for this.

You also don't really get to learn that he's at the extreme end of Lawful Evil unless you go digging around and see why he originally joined Melkor. Odd, eh?

[Keldar]

Now this thread is interesting again.  Tell me about the entwives, grandfather.

[bhu]

How sad is it that a discussion of decades old books is more interesting than ones that will be coming out....well not soon...

[Demelain]

Are you implying that there exists a decade when Tolkein will cease to be an interesting discussion? I pray I don't live to see that time.

[bhu]

All works of fiction eventually cease to be interesting discussion.  At some point society will be so unlike that of the time when said fiction was written that the two have nothing in common.   The Hobbit was written in 1937.  While it has endured, will it be remembered in another 100 years?  Will the themes in it have been exhausted and seem cliche to people who have never read it, but have seen legions of works that consciously or not plagiarize it?  Will culture even resemble that of the 30's enough that there's even an understanding there, or will the book seem like an alien relic of a past when we were foolish primitives?  Will we even still be human enough to have anything in common with it's writer?

[oslecamo]

The War of Troy/Illiad/Greek mythology was still pretty popular last time I checked.

Some billions of people still following the some old book called "Bible" out there as well.

Gilgamesh, aka the oldest hero story we still have a physical copy of, still discussed and relevant.

Killing, stealing and  mugging will never get old for humanity. It's an intemporal topic.

[FlaminCows]

Shakespeare is still being discussed. Homer too. We still understand them, and they're much older than Tolkien will be in another 100 years. We don't change nearly as much as people think.

What we really should be worried about is the possibility that Tolkien will some day take their place in English classes; hated with a passion by struggling secondary school and college students everywhere who have to deal with the old-timey language and the constant dissection of every sentence and idiom until the original meaning is buried under layers upon layers of inferred metaphor that seems completely contrary to the text's apparent meaning but must be remembered and expounded in the exams for fear of a bad grade.

[brujon]

Shakespeare is still being discussed. Homer too. We still understand them, and they're much older than Tolkien will be in another 100 years. We don't change nearly as much as people think.

What we really should be worried about is the possibility that Tolkien will some day take their place in English classes; hated with a passion by struggling secondary school and college students everywhere who have to deal with the old-timey language and the constant dissection of every sentence and idiom until the original meaning is buried under layers upon layers of inferred metaphor that seems completely contrary to the text's apparent meaning but must be remembered and expounded in the exams for fear of a bad grade.

You made me sad. I never thought of that.

[Bauglir]

For what it's worth, a catalog of Sauron's many defeats (as far as I can recall):

Overcome by Huan, a hound that could be slain only by the greatest wolf ever. Loss by hero.
Surrendered to the Numenorean invasion in order to corrupt them. Loss by army, but planned. Not an army of mooks, either.
Drowned/crushed/struck by lightning during Numenor's fall. Loss by God Himself.
Ring taken by Isildur. Loss by hero. EDIT: Some sources say Gil-Galad and Elendil slew Sauron, and Isildur just took the Ring afterward. In which case it would be loss by two heroes.
Ring destroyed. Loss by stealthy hero.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Now this thread is interesting again.  Tell me about the entwives, grandfather.

Hey baby, your roots are lookin' mossy ... 
(200+ years of metaphoric foreplay later)
... long story short, that's where saplings come from.

entkid: 
eww, granpa  ... pauses for a few days, then 
Hey granpa it looks like I have a little Redwood in me, did gramma ...

entgrandfather spits out a beehive.