Author Topic: D&D 5e: For real this time?  (Read 351963 times)

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #800 on: August 13, 2013, 09:11:46 AM »
I think "running on a tightrope is effortless for this character" would be covered by a Take 10 mechanic. The only addition to the Take 10 mechanic would be to take the guesswork out and have the rulebook tell the DM "if the character can succeed on this task by taking 10, don't ask the player to roll."

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #801 on: August 13, 2013, 09:15:54 AM »
I think "running on a tightrope is effortless for this character" would be covered by a Take 10 mechanic. The only addition to the Take 10 mechanic would be to take the guesswork out and have the rulebook tell the DM "if the character can succeed on this task by taking 10, don't ask the player to roll."

But that means that you basically only roll when your chance of failure is greater than your chance of success--which means the skill system is going to look very negative.

Offline FlaminCows

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #802 on: August 13, 2013, 09:52:43 AM »
Good point, I didn't think of that.

Now that I did think for a moment, a "trivial" task (like Unbeliever's Haley on a tightrope) would just be any check that the character would succeed on a 1, but a "mundane" or not plot-important task (like what Bhu referred to) may well be non-trivial in difficulty but doesn't need a roll anyway because a chance of failure on that task would not add anything good to the game. That would be harder to codify in rules, since a plot-unessential task may have a high DC. So the rule I suggested in my last post wouldn't address the problem at all. Bummer.

So. If one were to write DM guidelines for when not to roll for plot reasons, how would you word that?

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #803 on: August 13, 2013, 10:29:09 AM »
As indicated by my earlier comments, I approach this from a character construction perspective.  The rules should do a good job at distinguishing Haleys from Durkons. 

You should never roll if the act is trivial.  You don't roll to drive to work in the morning -- although the drivers here make it more Mad Max-esque than it should be -- or to haggle if you're just paying the market price.  Trivial generally equals no drama associated with it or any ordinary person could handle it. 

Walking across a tightrope isn't definitionally trivial, though.  It's only trivial for people with the right skills.  A take 10 mechanic is fine for that sort of thing, I have just been arguing that it needs to be paired with transparent DCs.  Otherwise a player (and a DM for that matter) doesn't know how to build a character who can easily walk across tightropes (high enough ranks, skill mastery, etc.). 

In practice, taking 10 in 3.5 seems to work out just fine.  If we're just talking about crossing a tightrope when there is no stress and time, then Haley can take 10.  No problem, no drama, she's good at tightrope walking.  If there are arrows wizzing by, then she has to roll, and then the ranks really matter (needing to roll a 5 to succeed is a lot different than a 9 in those instances), or there are things like Skill Mastery that say "I'm so good I can't be rattled with these skills."  Skill Mastery is unfortunately kind of a pain to get -- M&M does this better by making it more readily available.  Batman only risks failing Stealth checks in exceptional cases.


EDITed b/c I apparently can't read. 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 10:39:33 AM by Unbeliever »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #804 on: August 13, 2013, 10:33:47 AM »
The Take 10 thing proposed has exactly that problem, though. I said nothing about taking 10 in general. :eh

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #805 on: August 13, 2013, 10:38:37 AM »
The Take 10 thing proposed has exactly that problem, though. I said nothing about taking 10 in general. :eh
That's totally my fault.  I read it too quickly before I dashed off my reply.  Will edit the above post appropriately. 

Offline zioth

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #806 on: August 13, 2013, 01:22:10 PM »
So. If one were to write DM guidelines for when not to roll for plot reasons, how would you word that?

The guidelines are in the playtest packet. A DC5 check is generally something which doesn't have to be rolled. The DM can presumably also decide that for your character, the task is trivial enough that it's not worth the bother. But considering that your skill modifier can never be much higher than +5, that character-specific part probably won't come into play very often.
 
Now some characters get advantage on certain skill checks (take the higher of 2 d20s). That makes tasks a whole lot easier, and creates the "Haley" type character who keeps getting mentioned. The difference between a master thief (advantage - highest of two rolls) and a fighter in heavy plate (disadvantage - lowest of two rolls) is huge.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 01:24:32 PM by zioth »

Offline Raineh Daze

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #807 on: August 13, 2013, 01:24:43 PM »
So. If one were to write DM guidelines for when not to roll for plot reasons, how would you word that?

The guidelines are in the playtest packet. A DC5 check is generally something which doesn't have to be rolled. The DM can presumably also decide that for your character, the task is trivial enough that it's not worth the bother. But considering that your skill modifier can never be much higher than +5, that character-specific part probably won't come into play very often.

Skill modifiers could get to an average of +12 for rogues, but the skills aren't even in the latest packet. @_@

Offline zioth

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #808 on: August 13, 2013, 01:29:31 PM »
More precisely, the average d20 check when you have:
- advantage: 13.825
- nothing: 10.5
- disadvantage: 7.175
 
So the difference between Haley (dex=20, advantage) and durkon (dex=8 plus heavy armor) is an average of 12.65.

Offline oslecamo

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Offline Bard

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #810 on: August 16, 2013, 09:07:10 AM »
I don't have much hope left for Next if the playtest is to end with it in such a state  :(
"Playing the first 6 levels in D&D is like watching the story intro at the beginning of an action/disaster movie: it's boring and the shorter it is, the better."

Offline Demelain

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #811 on: August 16, 2013, 10:11:52 AM »
I'm actually quite satisfied with many of the ideas presented to us over the playtest. I'm just not satisfied with the math.
If WotC can get someone who can do the math on board, I'd look forward to this edition.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #812 on: August 16, 2013, 10:22:17 AM »
I'm actually quite satisfied with many of the ideas presented to us over the playtest. I'm just not satisfied with the math.
If WotC can get someone who can do the math on board, I'd look forward to this edition.
I don't mean to completely take advantage of your efforts, so feel free not to answer this.  But, do you mind doing a quick rundown of what you like out of it, under the hood math notwithstanding? 

Offline linklord231

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #813 on: August 16, 2013, 12:01:29 PM »
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Demelain

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #814 on: August 16, 2013, 12:28:11 PM »
I don't mean to completely take advantage of your efforts, so feel free not to answer this.  But, do you mind doing a quick rundown of what you like out of it, under the hood math notwithstanding?

Some time later, I'm occupied ATM.

Offline zioth

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #815 on: August 16, 2013, 01:49:50 PM »
But... they're still making drastic changes with each update!

It just means they've tried a bunch of things, figured out what players like and don't like, and are now going to work out the rest in private. Is that a good idea? We won't know until 5E is published.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #816 on: August 16, 2013, 03:36:58 PM »
I don't have much hope left for Next if the playtest is to end with it in such a state  :(

Almost all of the playtesters were deluding themselves, that their opinion mattered.

Buried under that bunch, are a few really insightful people who've made a difference.  A few guys from old wotc C.O. got in on 4e playtesting (as much good as that did) and some of those guys lasted through 4e C.O.  Hopefully a bunch more will "out" themselves.

It's standard practice to send a Disguised Car out on the streets for real world testing.  Then on a few rare occasions, some snoop will spot one and take a juicy rumor pic.  Like this 2011 shot of a 2013 rumor --> http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2013-dodge-small-car-spied-inside-and-out-news

This analogy to 5e oughta be obvious.  They've got to be hiding the real thing.  At least most of it.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 12:36:36 PM by awaken_D_M_golem »
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Offline Unbeliever

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #817 on: August 16, 2013, 04:01:56 PM »
^ that's not how beta testing works for video games, though, right?  Or playtesting for that matter?  Wouldn't that be the right analogy?  Or, I guess what the userbase is expecting, though not necessarily what was on offer.

Offline bhu

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #818 on: August 16, 2013, 08:47:06 PM »
Metaphorically their playtesting seems to be the equivalent of Mearls leaping naked out of a closet and screaming 'look, my dingus is curved like a banana."  In other words a distraction.

Offline Libertad

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #819 on: August 16, 2013, 09:00:33 PM »
Metaphorically their playtesting seems to be the equivalent of Mearls leaping naked out of a closet and screaming 'look, my dingus is curved like a banana."  In other words a distraction.

Paizo Playtesting:

"We'll improve upon the follies of 3rd Edition!  We'll listen to your concerns and comments on our progress."

Cranks boombox to maximum volume.

"What?!  Sorry, can't hear you!"

WotC Playtesting:

"I'm out of ideas, what should we do?"

"Consult the wheel!"

Spins wheel with 100+ mechanics from 30 years worth of Editions.

Lands on 'gender-based Strength score maximum.'

"Uhhh... let's take it to an online vote!"
« Last Edit: August 16, 2013, 09:02:48 PM by Libertad »