Author Topic: D&D 5e: For real this time?  (Read 351884 times)

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #820 on: August 17, 2013, 12:26:37 AM »
I don't have much hope left for Next if the playtest is to end with it in such a state  :(

Almost all of the playtesters were deluding themselves, that their opinion mattered.

Buried under that bunch, are a few really insightful people who've made a difference.  A few guys from old wotc C.O. got in on 4e playtesting (as much good as that did) and some of those guys lasted through 4e C.O.  Hopefully a bunch more will "out" themselves.

It's standard practice to send a Disguised Car out on the streets for real world testing.  Then on a few rare occasions, some snoop
will spot one and take a juicy rumor pic.  Like this 2011 shot of a 2013 rumor --> http://www.caranddriver.com/news/2013-dodge-small-car-spied-inside-and-out-news

This analogy to 5e oughta be obvious.  They've got to be hiding the real thing.  At least most of it.

Uh...ADMG is that you? This post seems a little different than your others.
Please, call me Count :).

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #821 on: August 17, 2013, 01:00:52 AM »
Metaphorically their playtesting seems to be the equivalent of Mearls leaping naked out of a closet and screaming 'look, my dingus is curved like a banana."  In other words a distraction.

Paizo Playtesting:

"We'll improve upon the follies of 3rd Edition!  We'll listen to your concerns and comments on our progress."

Cranks boombox to maximum volume.

"What?!  Sorry, can't hear you!"

WotC Playtesting:

"I'm out of ideas, what should we do?"

"Consult the wheel!"

Spins wheel with 100+ mechanics from 30 years worth of Editions.

Lands on 'gender-based Strength score maximum.'

"Uhhh... let's take it to an online vote!"
Sounds about right yeah. One does what they wanted to begin with, whatever the feedback. The other had no idea what they, nor anyone wants.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #822 on: August 17, 2013, 05:05:35 AM »
To be fair nobody has any real idea of what the D&D playerbase wants. There's still caster vs mundane discussions going around after over a decade of 3.X.

And ironically enough, the closest "solution" to that problem came from wotc themselves, aka tome of battle.

That's not to mention stuff like the people who seem to want to play logistics and dragons and demand clear economy systems (nevermind that real-world economy is a murky mess no matter how you look at it, and we don't have magic and a million other sentient species to worry about, so asking wotc to come up with a better system than our actual economists and bankers force down our throats is kinda delusional if you ask me).

Anyway, just 8 more pages for this:
That grand-unified D&D is very doable. A lot of work? Yes. Impossible? No.

We have people here who've gone through every 3.5 spell in existance. Whoa.

When this thread hits 50 pages, I'll spell out how its doable if no one else has.

Offline veekie

  • Spinner of Fortunes
  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 5423
  • Chaos Dice
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #823 on: August 17, 2013, 05:21:57 AM »
Basically, trying to satisfy all aspects of a disparate fanbase is a fruitless endeavor. Each category of fan appreciates a different subset or edition of the game.

Some of these are incompatible due to exponentially rising overheads, especially balance issues.
Look at for example, multiclassing, if you have multiclassing, you have to either pay in variety(4E style, limiting what you can gain from multiclassing), balance(combining classes designed for different roles and expecting to get consistent results is a pipe dream even if not for differring gains at different levels) or originality(abolishing classes altogether, allowing for free pick of abilities). Multiclassing MUST either cap the returns, deny synergy or ignore balance concerns to some extent.

Some of these are mutually incompatible.
Elegance and brevity of game rules cannot be attained while satisfying semi-realistic game world. Rules for edge cases and varied environments take up space and add complexity.  At the same time they are dealing with legacy effects, which cause an uproar if outright removed.


What I think they should have tried is to sell vision. 4E did that, except the attacks on older editions split the fanbase. It achieved it's own success, if not quite of the same quality. The designers should have a dream, and then make people believe it, and become invested in it. Instead they're going for centrist pandering in a divided environment. 5E does not appear to have a cohesive self image. It is defined, and trapped by the past, rather than carving a future in d20.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline oslecamo

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ****
  • Posts: 10080
  • Creating monsters for my Realm of Darkness
    • View Profile
    • Oslecamo's Custom Library (my homebrew)
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #824 on: August 17, 2013, 06:35:18 AM »
4E was a failure by D&D standards. It was the first edition to be outsold by a rival product being sold simultaneously. Do you think Microsoft's shareholders would be pleased if a Linux version suddenly started selling more than the latest Windows? That's why no 4e boss ever lasted more than 1 year before being sacked. That's why they've scrapped 4e so early on its life cycle. Not to mention the whole set of online promises that never came to being.


4e tried to be all hip and hop, but change for change's sake is a lot worse than nostalgia effect if you ask me. Not just on the mechanics department but also on the fluff.  Forgoten Realms was nuked. Eberron barely got any support. Those were both D&D money-making parts  that plenty of people loved, and wotc basically threw them in the ditch. Why? Because they were "carving a future in d20" and not wanting to be"trapped by the past". Turned out pretty well didn't it?

Basically, there's lots of RPGs out there trying to be the next cool thing, but only D&D can try to be, well, Dungeons and Dragons. It should stick to its guns that have proved to work.

(and as an aside, I'm perfectly fine with a multiclassing system where only a fraction of the combinations is viable, if we still get hundreds of viable combinations out of the millions of possibilities)

Offline dna1

  • PbP Game Master
  • ****
  • Posts: 1229
  • Sage of Herbology
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #825 on: August 17, 2013, 08:46:27 AM »
I just jumped on board this thread, and didn't bother to read the previous 42 pages of comments. So forgive me for being a bit ignorant on this subject.

I know nothing about 5e, this is the first time I've heard it being mentioned is this thread. But I think that scrapping 4e, and moving onto a 5th version would be similar to a slap in the face for us players.
Its like... rather than come out with another shitty version of D&D, fix the previous version. Or if you insist on making another new version. Wait longer to release it... Wait til the bugs are out and you have a solid build. If 4e was created correctly then in theory they shouldn't need a 5e. Why not just make another version x.5  lololol

I don't like to buy new versions of things that are functionally worse than the previous versions. I think making a new and improved version of something just to start raking in more money is part of whats wrong with our real world system. It seems stupid to make products that are built to break after a certain mileage, know what I mean?
The last thing I need is some rich business man to decide that I should move to a new version of D&D.... just because he wants to sell more products. Granted when I first heard of 3e I wasn't fond of the idea. But after reluctantly moving I can now see this version was indeed better than the last.

But I'm not a fan of 4e, instead of taking a step forward like from AD&D to 3.5. It's like they tried to make a kindergarten version of D&D that was simpler, cooler, faster! and shittier.
I will be honest here and admit that I've never played 4e. But I've never smoked crystal meth either, and I can tell you I don't want to. With 4e, I've looked at it, I've had it explained to me.  But they took away a lot of the character customization. Not all of it.. but a lot of it. When I make a character, its a unique masterpiece. I don't want to shit out a barbarian that has the same moves and everything as all of the other barbs, except his race and name is diff.

The only thing I did like about 4e is that a Wiz can cast magic missle all day long... 




 


TL:DR- The cycle of feces must end. I'm tired of the torrential downpour of utter shit being forced upon me, in the name of progress. Don't just hastily shit out another product, that you will later find too many flaws to deal with, then have to make another newer shittier product to correct the previous ones mistakes.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 08:52:25 AM by dna1 »
Roses are Red. Gaming is fun. You're over encumbered and cannot Run.

Offline jameswilliamogle

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #826 on: August 17, 2013, 09:25:25 AM »
I read the playtest this week.  I like it.  May even start gaming again.  Shrug.

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #827 on: August 17, 2013, 10:40:53 AM »
I read the playtest this week.  I like it.  May even start gaming again.  Shrug.

Why'd you stop? Busy with life? Bored with TTRPG's?
Please, call me Count :).

Offline jameswilliamogle

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #828 on: August 17, 2013, 10:49:04 AM »
I read the playtest this week.  I like it.  May even start gaming again.  Shrug.

Why'd you stop? Busy with life? Bored with TTRPG's?
Really didn't like 4e, was having a hard time finding players in my area, and life also got busy (several role transitions within my company, got married, etc).  I was getting bored with the ruleset of 3.5, but not the play of 3.5.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 7639
  • classique style , invisible tail
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #829 on: August 17, 2013, 12:42:48 PM »
Hey, getting married versus playing 4th Edition.
Sounds like the same "compromise" JanusJones
had to make ; and he recently reappeared too.

Whoa ... that's a Harmonic Convergence (sda).



Uh...ADMG is that you? This post seems a little different than your others.

All in the eye(s) (?!) of my kitty avatar's Beholder.
 :D
Your codpiece is a mimic.

Offline jameswilliamogle

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 64
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #830 on: August 17, 2013, 12:57:46 PM »
Hey, getting married versus playing 4th Edition.
Sounds like the same "compromise" JanusJones
had to make ; and he recently reappeared too.

Whoa ... that's a Harmonic Convergence (sda).
Yeah I saw JJ's posts in a few places too. 
"I sense something...a presence I haven't felt since..."

Offline Demelain

  • Hero Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #831 on: August 17, 2013, 01:37:48 PM »
Forgoten Realms was nuked.
I will never forgive them for that.
Short of ret-conning (most of) 4E Faerun, there is nothing WotC can do with that setting which will get me to buy back into it. I'll continue to run the 3rd Edition setting, thank you very much.

Offline Nanshork

  • Homebrew Reviewer
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 13401
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #832 on: August 17, 2013, 01:37:55 PM »
Hey, getting married versus playing 4th Edition.
Sounds like the same "compromise" JanusJones
had to make ; and he recently reappeared too.

Whoa ... that's a Harmonic Convergence (sda).
Yeah I saw JJ's posts in a few places too. 
"I sense something...a presence I haven't felt since..."

Why do people that I haven't seen in years keep popping up?  Not that I'm complaining, it is just odd timing.

Offline linklord231

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3352
  • The dice are trying to kill me
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #833 on: August 17, 2013, 02:52:45 PM »
Forgoten Realms was nuked.
I will never forgive them for that.
Short of ret-conning (most of) 4E Faerun, there is nothing WotC can do with that setting which will get me to buy back into it. I'll continue to run the 3rd Edition setting, thank you very much.

I haven't heard much since the initial announcement, but it seems like the Sundering is basically a giant undoing of everything that 4e changed.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2013, 12:20:50 AM by linklord231 »
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline Complete4th

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
    • The Complete 4th Edition
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #834 on: August 17, 2013, 09:48:26 PM »
...change for change's sake is a lot worse than nostalgia effect if you ask me.
Change for the sake of change is only occasionally successful, and often destructive.

But significant improvement is worth significant change, and to my way of thinking, nostalgia takes a back seat to every other consideration. (In gaming, and in life.)

Not surprisingly, I'm kind of a 4e fanboy.  :D

Forgoten Realms was nuked.
I will never forgive them for that.
Short of ret-conning (most of) 4E Faerun, there is nothing WotC can do with that setting which will get me to buy back into it. I'll continue to run the 3rd Edition setting, thank you very much.
After seeing many editions of FR world-changing cataclysms, I can't get worked up over the latest one.

I hear tell Greenwood still DMs his original 1e (?) FR setting.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2013, 09:51:42 PM by Complete4th »

Offline Bard

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • **
  • Posts: 179
  • Medium sized Lemure
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #835 on: August 17, 2013, 10:48:45 PM »
But significant improvement is worth significant change, and to my way of thinking, nostalgia takes a back seat to every other consideration. (In gaming, and in life.)

While I agree on this, there's also difference between improving a system to better achieve the desires of its target audience and changing the direction of an IP.


(click to show/hide)

TL;DR version: They changed a lot in 4th. It ended up as a good game that I enjoyed. It did not FEEL Dungeon & Dragons.

I would LOVE change, but what I want is a new, better version of D&D. I don't want another game with the D&D franchise on it. :(
Exactly like 3.0 improved on AD&D removing of simplifying some bad rules (THAC0 anyone?), improving the heroic feeling making everyone end up stronger, improving the customization (PrC, feats), what I'd like to see is another game that keeps building up on that (making mundanes fun with more meaningful choices for one... toning down some areas of magic that imho can ruin a campaign like strong divinations/enchantments)

For now, from what I tested of Next, it still doesn't feel D&D, but I still hope it will, maybe 4-5 months after it's out with the splatbooks coming out. It just doesn't look promising.

"Playing the first 6 levels in D&D is like watching the story intro at the beginning of an action/disaster movie: it's boring and the shorter it is, the better."

Offline Libertad

  • Epic Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 3618
    • View Profile
    • My Fantasy and Gaming Blog
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #836 on: August 17, 2013, 11:43:32 PM »

Offline Complete4th

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 93
  • I'm new!
    • View Profile
    • The Complete 4th Edition
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #837 on: August 18, 2013, 12:13:39 AM »
But significant improvement is worth significant change, and to my way of thinking, nostalgia takes a back seat to every other consideration. (In gaming, and in life.)

While I agree on this, there's also difference between improving a system to better achieve the desires of its target audience and changing the direction of an IP.
Clearly, the nature/value of improvement and D&D's target audience is a matter of opinion. I've been playing D&D for many editions now, so I'm part of its target audience right? You feel that 4e doesn't feel like D&D, which is fine. But 4e fulfills my three D&D requirements: It has strange monsters to kill, lots of loot to grab, and weird dice to roll.

And some of the things that make 3.x so much fun for you are things that other gamers would point to as "not D&D". Some of them are things that I myself can't be bothered to deal with.

FYI: For what it's worth to you, 4e currently has lots and lots of character options. Maybe not as many as 3.x -- I don't know, I haven't counted -- but still more than I'll ever be able to play in my lifetime. And once the number of options gets beyond the 'in my lifetime' threshold, it doesn't actually matter whether one edition has more than the other.

For now, from what I tested of Next, it still doesn't feel D&D, but I still hope it will, maybe 4-5 months after it's out with the splatbooks coming out. It just doesn't look promising.
I'm so unhopeful that I'm currently writing a true-to-4e clone, because I'd rather iron out the few wrinkles it has than dive into a new half-assed edition. I'd prefer WotC do it for me, but it's not in their business model.

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #838 on: August 18, 2013, 12:36:57 AM »
Mike Mearls is bringing back Kender as a PC race.



MEEEAAARRRLLLSSS!!!
Now I think he's just fucking with us. 

@Forgotten Realms:  The idea of changing fluff and settings due to system changes strikes me as quite silly.  They did this with 3E, too, I think, with the inclusion of Sorcerers and some suchness.  I am not now, nor have I ever been, really on top of FR as a setting.

Offline 123456789blaaa

  • DnD Handbook Writer
  • ***
  • Posts: 623
  • Not very active here but still active online
    • View Profile
Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #839 on: August 18, 2013, 12:43:58 AM »
Hey, getting married versus playing 4th Edition.
Sounds like the same "compromise" JanusJones
had to make ; and he recently reappeared too.

Whoa ... that's a Harmonic Convergence (sda).
Yeah I saw JJ's posts in a few places too. 
"I sense something...a presence I haven't felt since..."

Why do people that I haven't seen in years keep popping up?  Not that I'm complaining, it is just odd timing.

Like who?
Please, call me Count :).