Author Topic: D&D 5e: For real this time?  (Read 351920 times)

Offline oslecamo

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #300 on: May 28, 2012, 08:46:36 AM »
5e-all the brokeness you know and love, now with 1/10th of the book keeping! :P

Hmm, that may actually be quite a good selling slogan.

Offline Bauglir

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #301 on: May 28, 2012, 11:32:12 AM »
Hell, I'd buy Core just to see how it holds up to my expectations, assuming it's priced within my range (I could see my way to spending 50 bucks for the entire set, at most).

Offline Libertad

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #302 on: May 28, 2012, 02:35:14 PM »
5e-all the brokeness you know and love, now with 1/10th of the book keeping! :P

Hmm, that may actually be quite a good selling slogan.

Not if they succumb to the fate of product bloat.  It happened in the last days of TSR, it happened to 3rd and 4th Edition with Wizards of the Coast; I have the feeling that history will repeat itself.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2012, 02:48:42 PM by Libertad »

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #303 on: May 28, 2012, 02:39:50 PM »
5e-all the brokeness you know and love, now with 1/10th of the book keeping! :P

Hmm, that may actually be quite a good selling slogan.

Not if they succumb to the fate of product bloat.  It happen in the last days of TSR, it happened to 3rd and 4th Edition with Wizards of the Coast; I have the feeling that history will repeat itself.
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Offline caelic

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #304 on: May 28, 2012, 03:24:35 PM »
Not if they succumb to the fate of product bloat.  It happened in the last days of TSR, it happened to 3rd and 4th Edition with Wizards of the Coast; I have the feeling that history will repeat itself.


I don't see how they can possibly avoid it.  Remember, WotC answers to Hasbro, and Hasbro has some pretty stringent standards for profitability.  Give the guys at WotC due credit for managing to make a tabletop RPG meet those standards for so long, given that tabletop RPGs have never been a high-profit commodity.

4e was an attempt to radically shift their profit model from a "Buy a new book every month" arrangement to a monthly fee-for-service model, not unlike MMORPGs.  However, that fell on its face spectacularly.  D&D Insider never came close to the "virtual gaming environment" they promised, and even Gleemax collapsed.

That leaves them with the "Book a month until saturation, then reset" model...and the problems that prompted them to try getting away from that model in the first place.  With every reset, they lose customers, and the time to saturation decreases.  There's a reason 4e only lasted 3 1/2 years.

I made several predictions when 4e was announced.  Unfortunately, most of them have been accurate.  I say "unfortunately," because one of those predictions was that they'd have to go to a fifth edition fairly quickly, and that fifth edition would be the end of the line for the tabletop RPG.  I still expect that to be the case, sadly.

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #305 on: May 28, 2012, 05:04:53 PM »
and that fifth edition would be the end of the line for the tabletop RPG.  I still expect that to be the case, sadly.
End of the line? For real?

What are your thoughts on things going forward as hybrid techno-tabletop RPGs? Microsoft surface? Game mechanics/revisions in the cloud or in eBooks (no more print books to buy)? Could these technologies and eFormats save the game?       

Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #306 on: May 28, 2012, 07:27:20 PM »
I've been following DDN pretty closely, and while Mearls being on the team (and INTENTIONALLY fucking certain things up*) makes me cringe, this edition has more going for it than any one before it. MS Surface is becoming used more and more (making a card shop with a MS Surface a great place to play), They have had all of 4.X to fix the godawful backend for the online features, and the modular system actually gives them a CHANCE that they CAN please everyone.



*Mearls has gone on record as saying that Vancian casting stays "because he wants it" and that the fighter is supposed to suck.

Offline Libertad

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #307 on: May 28, 2012, 10:34:47 PM »
I've been following DDN pretty closely, and while Mearls being on the team (and INTENTIONALLY fucking certain things up*) makes me cringe, this edition has more going for it than any one before it. MS Surface is becoming used more and more (making a card shop with a MS Surface a great place to play), They have had all of 4.X to fix the godawful backend for the online features, and the modular system actually gives them a CHANCE that they CAN please everyone.



*Mearls has gone on record as saying that Vancian casting stays "because he wants it" and that the fighter is supposed to suck.

Woah, hold it!

Did he really say this?  If you remember the source, I'd like to see it.

Offline JohnnyMayHymn

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #308 on: May 29, 2012, 03:12:49 AM »
Woah, hold it!

Did he really say this?  If you remember the source, I'd like to see it.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #309 on: May 29, 2012, 08:08:56 AM »
I'm wondering if the designers put so much emphasis on DM fiat in the playtest because they don't want to reveal the rules for every situation yet.
It's likely because they're trying to appeal to old AD&D players. That, or they don't want to write rules and they want you to pay for a book full of not-rules. :p


I'm still trying to figure out who this new system is for.

It's not really for the "balance uber alles" crowd--4e works fine for that.

It's not really for the hardcore optimizers and system redliners--3.5/Pathfinder still seem to be the systems of choice there.

It's not for the old-school players, who are spoiled silly these days with OSR systems.

So who is the core target market for this edition?
What it's for is to sell a new edition and make money. 4E isn't going to make them much money anymore. Their target audience is supposedly all D&D players. They want this to be a magical omni-edition that everyone will like. What's that old adage about trying to please everyone?
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Offline skydragonknight

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #310 on: May 29, 2012, 08:12:43 AM »
Perhaps I'm mistaken, since I only have passing knowledge of Frank and K stuff, but isn't Advantage/Disadvantage like "the Edge"? If so, and they've been researching the more popular homebrews for inspiration, I might have to set aside my skepticism and give this thing a try myself.
Hmm.

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #311 on: May 29, 2012, 10:41:32 AM »
Perhaps I'm mistaken, since I only have passing knowledge of Frank and K stuff, but isn't Advantage/Disadvantage like "the Edge"? If so, and they've been researching the more popular homebrews for inspiration, I might have to set aside my skepticism and give this thing a try myself.
Yeah, the Advantage/Disadvantage thing reminded me of The Edge too, which I also found encouraging.
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Offline RobbyPants

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #312 on: May 29, 2012, 10:45:29 AM »
Perhaps I'm mistaken, since I only have passing knowledge of Frank and K stuff, but isn't Advantage/Disadvantage like "the Edge"? If so, and they've been researching the more popular homebrews for inspiration, I might have to set aside my skepticism and give this thing a try myself.
From what I understand, the good thing about it is it's a re-roll, which keeps you on the same RNG. Also, an advantage provides a larger bonus to someone who has a lower percentage chance to succeed than to someone with a high chance to succeed (giving less additional benefit to optimizers, being more newbie-friendly). The bad part is a disadvantage hurts people worse who have a low chance of success. So that's a mixed bag.

It looks like they've gotten rid of AoOs and you take a disadvantage casting or firing in melee. Still, instead of a five-foot step, casters now have a 30-foot step!
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Offline Nytemare3701

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #313 on: May 29, 2012, 12:13:53 PM »
Woah, hold it!

Did he really say this?  If you remember the source, I'd like to see it.

A few gems of his: (Not actual quotes, paraphrased from interviews and cobbled together so they make sense without a paragraph of context each)

"Fighters are supposed to be entirely mundane"

"A fighter isn't supposed to have as many options as other characters"

"A fighter's HP and AC make him almost invulnerable" (Really now? In a game that now has 6 saves?)

"A wizard's spells can do better, but the fighter is more reliable" (No. Just No.)

Offline caelic

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #314 on: May 29, 2012, 06:35:14 PM »
and that fifth edition would be the end of the line for the tabletop RPG.  I still expect that to be the case, sadly.
End of the line? For real?

What are your thoughts on things going forward as hybrid techno-tabletop RPGs? Microsoft surface? Game mechanics/revisions in the cloud or in eBooks (no more print books to buy)? Could these technologies and eFormats save the game?     




Really depends on whether Hasbro thinks they can make a sufficient profit to justify developing the technologies, and how far removed from the tabletop RPG the end product is.  Keep in mind that I absolutely do not think Hasbro is going to shelve Dungeons and Dragons, the intellectual property.  I think they're going to shelve Dungeons and Dragons, the tabletop RPG.  There will likely still be novels and CRPGs and any number of other products based on the property, because those can and do make money.  (Heck, D&D novels were bringing in more money than the game itself way back in the TSR days.)

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #315 on: May 29, 2012, 07:13:20 PM »

 :D ... the Fighter is supposed to suck.

+1
They should definitely do that (again).
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Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #316 on: May 29, 2012, 07:17:39 PM »

5e game went well.

EDIT: i retract some of the ... (stab)


Y'know ...  :rolleyes ... they can hire some dark gray hats, to find you.

 
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Offline Keldar

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #317 on: May 29, 2012, 10:13:12 PM »
I'm wondering if the designers put so much emphasis on DM fiat in the playtest because they don't want to reveal the rules for every situation yet.
It's likely because they're trying to appeal to old AD&D players. That, or they don't want to write rules and they want you to pay for a book full of not-rules. :p


I'm still trying to figure out who this new system is for.

It's not really for the "balance uber alles" crowd--4e works fine for that.

It's not really for the hardcore optimizers and system redliners--3.5/Pathfinder still seem to be the systems of choice there.

It's not for the old-school players, who are spoiled silly these days with OSR systems.

So who is the core target market for this edition?
What it's for is to sell a new edition and make money. 4E isn't going to make them much money anymore. Their target audience is supposedly all D&D players. They want this to be a magical omni-edition that everyone will like. What's that old adage about trying to please everyone?
My first thought when I heard about 5E was they better choose someone to market to as going after everyone is destined to  please no one.  I was wrong.  I'm actually pleasantly surprised by what is in the Beta document.   I've found things to love and hate in every edition, and so far I'm mostly seeing the positive traits from the past showing up.  So there is a small group of people that this approach actually could please.

It has the basic bones of 3e there so far, but removing level scaling lends more toward 4e balance.  Going light on rules and counting on opposed rolls and Advantage to cover the gaps takes the best mechanical concept from older editions.  If they provide enough fiddly bits like 3e, and fluff/plot mechanics like 2e, I could actually like 5e.

Not that they're fucking telling us nearly enough.  Nor is the Fighter supposed to suck, damn it Mearls!

Offline Necrosnoop110

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #318 on: May 30, 2012, 01:10:34 AM »
It has the basic bones of 3e there so far, ...
That was the vibe I'm getting as well, from what little I've seen. (I've downloaded the playtest)

but removing level scaling lends more toward 4e balance.
How do we know this? Isn't the playtest just low level characters?

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Offline altpersona

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Re: D&D 5e: For real this time?
« Reply #319 on: May 30, 2012, 01:32:41 AM »
imo, it felt like 4e w/ out the Magic@ cards.
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