Monster of Legend (Prestige/Template Monster Class)

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

Can we maybe figure out a modified version of Gifted for War that wouldn't be problematic rather than ditching it entirely? Getting rid of it leaves several PbP characters in the lurch.

What was the problem with it? As I recall, you never got a recovery mechanism for the maneuvers you gained via the saga ability meaning that it wouldn't ever come close to the power level of a class that did have recovery.

EDIT: I found a copypasta of the deleted version of the ability.

(click to show/hide)

You may iniate maneuvers as a martial adept whose Level is equal to your Hit Dice. Pick one martial discipline and choose 1 maneuver of each level you can iniate. You may initiate each of them only once per encounter and cannot recover them.

Should the creature take levels in a martial class, it may elect to have its Creature of Legend and Monster class levels grant full IL for that class only.

So yeah, one school, one maneuver/level, no recovery mechanism for those maneuvers even if you multiclass.

I read through the Zombie thread again and your issue seemed to be granting access to martial PrCs without needing a martial base class.

If that's the issue I would suggest altering the last sentence to read "Should the creature take levels in a martial [base] class..."

[Anomander]

It was about as strong as the spell granting ones. Remove them too?
They were all too powerful anyway.

[oslecamo]

What was the problem with it? As I recall, you never got a recovery mechanism for the maneuvers you gained via the saga ability meaning that it wouldn't ever come close to the power level of a class that did have recovery.

No recovery mechanism is secondary unless you happen to be in a pretty big battle. Also you can probably still recover them with adaptative style depending on how you read it.

But the main problem is that it's 9 maneuvers. Martial iniators usually learn 13-24 maneuvers over their classes. Gifted for War Saga grants a whooping 7-8 extra maneuvers (taking in account the ones you'll miss due to not taking a couple levels of your base class) for just 2 levels. Compare with prophet saga, where divine casters will always know dozens if not hundreds of spells by default. The part where the maneuvers all must be of the same school is also secondary, since unlike spells, the maneuvers of a same school usually have much higher sinergy with each other.

With that said, put back a new version. Fewer maneuvers know, but a custom recovery mechanic.

[Anomander]

The original was actually granting a maximum 9 maneuvers (1 per maneuver level).
Adaptive Style cannot recover them in either version, because the text states they cannot be recovered at all. Point.
No recovery mostly means you can't spam your higher level maneuvers every 2 rounds or less in battle big and short.

Spells vs Maneuvers.
Casters got more spells but usually not many higher level spells per day.
An initiator usually end up with more higher level maneuvers than low level ones and can spam them. Spells are meant to usually be better than maneuvers. Depending on spells being more powerful than maneuvers of the same level or not, simply not granting any recovery per encounter makes it the same as having 1 spell of each spell level per day.

That aside I'll note you just made it stronger than it was before.
Less maneuvers is trivial considering you still get the higher level ones. Less maneuvers actually makes it better since it becomes easier to spam them all for the instant crusader-like recovery, making it possible to quickly use your best maneuver over and over again.
Way better than carrying around a bunch of low level maneuvers that can be used only once per encounter at best, I say.

[oslecamo]

If they can't be recovered at all, then that would kinda suck because it would mean you could only ever use each maneuver once in your existence. Adaptative style on the other hand never uses the explicit word "recover", you just change your readied maneuvers.

Anyway pretty much every ToB school has awesome low and medium level maneuvers, from IHS to WRT, sudden leap, mountain hammer, diamond mind counters, etc, etc. Also means you can mill out a lot of utility out of the previous option.

With the current method, you can only pull the quick repeating if you don't pick any reactive maneuvers. If you have a leftover counter, in particular a situational one, you can't hope to be able to expend it right away. And if you don't pick any reactive maneuvers, you're severly limiting yourself on your choices. Great for pure offense yes, but what makes maneuvers great is versatility of choice.

If you went with Iron Heart for example, you most surely want the Iron Heart Surge one, but it's not guaranteed in battle you'll always have a good reason to use it. Meaning you spend a standard action if you want to recover your stuff.

[Anomander]

Not much of an issue. You can get your reactive powers through actual class abilities since you only spend two levels for your maneuver power.
I dunno, say, martial levels that grant you those Counters?

As presented, it is more ideal as a mean to wreck stuff up very quickly. Like easy access to skill check to damage tricks. Boosts to make sure they land or get otherwise really effective and something to move around the battlefield very well. To wreck stuff. Then do it all over again right away until there is nothing left.

[oslecamo]

Changed it so that you need to learn at least one strike, one boost and one counter.

Mind you, if you needed to recover them to start with, then you're just wrecking stuff very slowly.

[Concerned Ninja Citizen]

New Gifted for War looks great. Thanks.

[Raineh Daze]

So you can pick immunity to two things as your sole option, but not immunity to just one element as part of the 'pick two options' spread?

[oslecamo]

Good point, moved it to the "pick two options" spread.

[Raineh Daze]

-Any  type but humanoid (Monstrous humanoid is ok), undead, construct, ooze or swarm.

I can understand no swarms--they're not a single entity--but why no legendary golems, gelatinous cubes, or zombies?

Also, this seems to mean that going from some type of giant to Monster of Legend and then unintentionally becoming a vampire ends up giving you two dead levels.

[VennDygrem]

I'd say those creature types are denied because they are mindless in most cases and don't really have free will, no sense of self, and act either by instinct or as instructed. Thus, incapable of making choices and seizing destiny, so to speak. They can't do anything legendary because it's not their will to do so.

[Raineh Daze]

I'd say those creature types are denied because they are mindless in most cases and don't really have free will, no sense of self, and act either by instinct or as instructed. Thus, incapable of making choices and seizing destiny, so to speak. They can't do anything legendary because it's not their will to do so.

We have entire classes for Awakened Gelatinous Cubes and intelligent undead available to use, though. And the third prerequisite would stop mindless creatures from taking it.

On a side note, the way it's written right now makes you outright lose the two levels, including all HD, feats, skillpoints, BAB, and similar, which would make being charmed or dominated much, much worse.

[oslecamo]

On the contrary, it helps you hurt your party members less while you're under the effect of said charm/dominate.

Undeads are those that gave up on life, and thus on the legends that they could've forged while still breathing.

Constructs are simply soulless beings, incapable of understanding the whole legendary concept.

Oozes... Hmm, I can't really think of a good reason for those, they're now allowed as well.

[Raineh Daze]

On the contrary, it helps you hurt your party members less while you're under the effect of said charm/dominate.

Undeads are those that gave up on life, and thus on the legends that they could've forged while still breathing.

Constructs are simply soulless beings, incapable of understanding the whole legendary concept.

And then what happens when you get intelligent constructs?

And what about undead made from humans? They certainly couldn't be Monsters of Legend before, but what about Dracula (or Alucard from Hellsing as the first undead that comes to mind that would be so very fitting for this class)? Or, in fact, any undead that has transcended its base urges of 'eat without restraint' to earn a place in history?

... on a side note, I just noticed the 'ignore half DR' clause in MoL. How does this interact with Power (or is it Rending) weapons from d20 SRW?

[oslecamo]

And then what happens when you get intelligent constructs?

Just because they have AIs doesn't mean they have souls.

And what about undead made from humans? They certainly couldn't be Monsters of Legend before, but what about Dracula (or Alucard from Hellsing as the first undead that comes to mind that would be so very fitting for this class)?

Altough Alucard is pretty badass, it also keeps a pretty low profile, thus definetely qualifying it as non-legendary. 99,99% of its enemies go all "who's this guy again?". Alucard's more of a paragon vampire.

Or, in fact, any undead that has transcended its base urges of 'eat without restraint' to earn a place in history?

I heard of some "twilight" rumors. Doesn't qualify as legends.

 

... on a side note, I just noticed the 'ignore half DR' clause in MoL. How does this interact with Power (or is it Rending) weapons from d20 SRW?

Already clarified that one with Anomander on the PS campaign.

[Raineh Daze]

And then what happens when you get intelligent constructs?

Just because they have AIs doesn't mean they have souls.

Half-golem?

And what about undead made from humans? They certainly couldn't be Monsters of Legend before, but what about Dracula (or Alucard from Hellsing as the first undead that comes to mind that would be so very fitting for this class)?

Altough Alucard is pretty badass, it also keeps a pretty low profile, thus definetely qualifying it as non-legendary. 99,99% of its enemies go all "who's this guy again?". Alucard's more of a paragon vampire.

'Low profile'? Aside from the people with no knowledge whatsoever, literally everyone he fights knows who he is, and the closest to 'low profile' he gets is locked away for sixty years. He also happens to be Dracula. And quite possibly the single most dangerous creature in the Hellsing world. Non-legendary is a bit of a stretch, here.

Or, in fact, any undead that has transcended its base urges of 'eat without restraint' to earn a place in history?

I heard of some "twilight" rumors. Doesn't qualify as legends.

Err... what? Seriously? Intelligent undead can't become Monsters of Legend because they don't have a pulse, and your rebuttal to what if one becomes legendary (by being more than 'Hunt, kill, eat, hunt, kill, eat') is to bring up garbage literature? :|

... on a side note, I just noticed the 'ignore half DR' clause in MoL. How does this interact with Power (or is it Rending) weapons from d20 SRW?

Already clarified that one with Anomander on the PS campaign.

... any idea where?

Oh, question: if you are a MoL, and then, say, become a lich or something, or a vampire, or generally do anything to turn you into a free-willed intelligent undead, do you lose  the MoL levels?

Sorry for my strange pedantry today. >.<

[VennDygrem]

I don't think you lose MoL levels, unless I missed anything. As for Undead, intelligent undead would have specific prestige classes to their race, I'd say. Like Vampire -> Vampire Lord or something. Or, as Osle suggested, taking Paragon levels.

Ok, so really everyone should take Paragon levels regardless.

[oslecamo]

And then what happens when you get intelligent constructs?

Just because they have AIs doesn't mean they have souls.

Half-golem?

Didn't you get the memo? Replacing your fleshy bits with technology will destroy your soul. (or so says Shadowrun)

And what about undead made from humans? They certainly couldn't be Monsters of Legend before, but what about Dracula (or Alucard from Hellsing as the first undead that comes to mind that would be so very fitting for this class)?

Altough Alucard is pretty badass, it also keeps a pretty low profile, thus definetely qualifying it as non-legendary. 99,99% of its enemies go all "who's this guy again?". Alucard's more of a paragon vampire.

'Low profile'? Aside from the people with no knowledge whatsoever, literally everyone he fights knows who he is, and the closest to 'low profile' he gets is locked away for sixty years. He also happens to be Dracula. And quite possibly the single most dangerous creature in the Hellsing world. Non-legendary is a bit of a stretch, here.

Most people in Hellsing world don't even believe vampires exist, and those that know that vampires exist don't believe Alucard can exist, even after having seen it flay the skin of the rest of their army.

Anyway vampires will get Vampire Lord somewhere down the line, they really don't need even more nice things.

Or, in fact, any undead that has transcended its base urges of 'eat without restraint' to earn a place in history?

I heard of some "twilight" rumors. Doesn't qualify as legends.

Err... what? Seriously? Intelligent undead can't become Monsters of Legend because they don't have a pulse, and your rebuttal to what if one becomes legendary (by being more than 'Hunt, kill, eat, hunt, kill, eat') is to bring up garbage literature? :|

Any literature where vampires don't actually need to drink blood is garbage literature as far as I'm concerned.

... on a side note, I just noticed the 'ignore half DR' clause in MoL. How does this interact with Power (or is it Rending) weapons from d20 SRW?

Already clarified that one with Anomander on the PS campaign.

... any idea where?

Go check the begginnings of the high-end OOC thread. Search fuction may help.

Oh, question: if you are a MoL, and then, say, become a lich or something, or a vampire, or generally do anything to turn you into a free-willed intelligent undead, do you lose  the MoL levels?

Yes as you no longer meet the pre-requisites.

Sorry for my strange pedantry today. >.<

You're excused.

[Raineh Daze]

And what about undead made from humans? They certainly couldn't be Monsters of Legend before, but what about Dracula (or Alucard from Hellsing as the first undead that comes to mind that would be so very fitting for this class)?

Altough Alucard is pretty badass, it also keeps a pretty low profile, thus definetely qualifying it as non-legendary. 99,99% of its enemies go all "who's this guy again?". Alucard's more of a paragon vampire.

'Low profile'? Aside from the people with no knowledge whatsoever, literally everyone he fights knows who he is, and the closest to 'low profile' he gets is locked away for sixty years. He also happens to be Dracula. And quite possibly the single most dangerous creature in the Hellsing world. Non-legendary is a bit of a stretch, here.

Most people in Hellsing world don't even believe vampires exist, and those that know that vampires exist don't believe Alucard can exist, even after having seen it flay the skin of the rest of their army.

Luke Valentine specifically sought him out. Millennium knew exactly what he was, because of Schrodinger. I think it's more disbelief that anything so insane could actually exist in the world.

Anyway vampires will get Vampire Lord somewhere down the line, they really don't need even more nice things.

That would be nice; I don't want to turn into a swarm of beetles or something. D:

Or, in fact, any undead that has transcended its base urges of 'eat without restraint' to earn a place in history?

I heard of some "twilight" rumors. Doesn't qualify as legends.

Err... what? Seriously? Intelligent undead can't become Monsters of Legend because they don't have a pulse, and your rebuttal to what if one becomes legendary (by being more than 'Hunt, kill, eat, hunt, kill, eat') is to bring up garbage literature? :|

Any literature where vampires don't actually need to drink blood is garbage literature as far as I'm concerned.

I was actually thinking more intelligent revenants, ghouls, and the more esoteric undead like Death Knights than vampires. You were the one to bring up Twilight. :<

... on a side note, I just noticed the 'ignore half DR' clause in MoL. How does this interact with Power (or is it Rending) weapons from d20 SRW?

Already clarified that one with Anomander on the PS campaign.

... any idea where?

Go check the begginnings of the high-end OOC thread. Search fuction may help.

Got it.

Oh, question: if you are a MoL, and then, say, become a lich or something, or a vampire, or generally do anything to turn you into a free-willed intelligent undead, do you lose  the MoL levels?

Yes as you no longer meet the pre-requisites.

So... if something turns you into a vampire... you immediately lose two HD rather than just the benefits of the class?