Author Topic: Base Class - Sublime Shaper  (Read 13286 times)

Offline DonQuixote

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Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« on: January 10, 2012, 11:01:39 PM »
Fighters to the Left of Me, Wizards to the Right

Few people will assert that fighters and wizards, as released in the Player's Handbook, are on an equal footing.  Amusingly, one of the first base classes to combine melee combat and magic--the hexblade--suffered from a design philosophy that considered the combination of magic with armor and a full base attack bonus to be too powerful.  By the time that the duskblade was written, this had changed to the point at which magic and steel were allowed to work together without excessive penalties.

The Tome of Battle introduced a new system of martial maneuvers, which allowed players to build more powerful and versatile melee characters than previously possible.  The Codices of Spellshaping drawing upon the ideas and mechanics of the Tome of Battle, created an analogous system for building versatile and interesting magic-using characters that were weaker than, say, a wizard or a cleric.  In the tradition of the hexblade and the duskblade, the Codices included the spellshape champion, a melee fighter who channels spellshape attacks and formulae through a weapon.

However, combining spellshaping and melee combat does not explore the full range of possibilities for a character who combines magic and steel.  By combining martial maneuvers and arcane formulae, the new class presented here--the sublime shaper--allows one to wield a sword in one hand while shaping magical attacks with the other.  Though she does not channel her magic through her blade, the supreme training of a sublime shaper allows her to guard herself with her weapon, allowing her to shape her formulae without fear.

Like all spellshapers, the sublime shaper qualifies for the Idiosyncratic Shaper alternative class feature.  Moreover, as a sublime shaper uses the same ability score for spellshaping and for initiating, Idiosyncratic Shaper also changes the ability score used by a sublime shaper to set the save DCs of her maneuvers.



Sublime Shaper
"Those who choose between the paths of steel and sorcery limit themselves.  I follow the true path, which lies between them."
--Ruinna the Swift, sublime shaper initiate

While some individuals follow paths of martial discipline and others study the art of magic, the sublime shaper is a student of both.  For her, the martial disciplines and the arcane circles are simply two parts of the same whole.  Skilled both as a martial adept and as a spellshaper, a sublime shaper is a powerful ally and a dangerous foe.
   A sublime shaper follows a path of careful meditation, honing her body and her mind as she perfects her martial and magical abilities.  Through this meditation, she gains the ability to draw upon her entire self during battle, empowering her magic with her physical might and strengthening her blows with the force of her personality.  As she advances, she gains the ability to detect, control, and manipulate the magic of others, allowing her to fight her enemies on multiple levels at once.

Making a Sublime Shaper
As a sublime shaper, you combine melee combat with magical assaults, allowing you to engage one foe at close range while simultaneously attacking enemies further away.  Your ability to use both arcane formulae and martial maneuvers is a rare gift, and one that you value highly.  As you become more experienced, your repertoire of abilities, as well as your skill at using them together, will grow swiftly.
   Abilities: Charisma is the most important ability score for a sublime shaper, as it governs how powerful her formulae and maneuvers are, as well as contributing to her defenses and the strength of her blows.  Dexterity is almost equally important, as she relies on carefully aimed attacks, both with her weapons and with her spellshape attacks.  As a close combatant, she also values a good Constitution score.
   Races: Sublime shapers can come from any race that is capable of producing both spellshapers and martial adepts.  Human sublime shapers are slightly more common than other races, but only slightly.
   Alignment: A sublime shaper can belong to any alignment.  Her meditation and commitment to her path might lead her towards a more lawful outlook, but the unusual art of combining magical and martial training might just as easily develop in a chaotic individual.
   Starting Gold: 4d4x10 (100 gp).
   Starting Age: As monk.
   Hit Die: d8

Level   Base Attack Bonus            Fort   Ref   Will   Special
Form. and Man. Known
Form. and Man. Prepared
Stances Known
1st+0+0+2+2Sublime guard, prestidigitation, spellshape attacks
6
4
1
2nd+1+0+3+3AC bonus, detect magic
7
4
2
3rd+2+1+3+3Uncanny dodge
8
5
2
4th+3+1+4+4Empowering strike, rebuke spell
9
5
2
5th+3+1+4+4Command magic 1/day
10
5
3
6th+4+2+5+5Martial mage +2
11
6
3
7th+5+2+5+5Sense magic
12
6
3
8th+6/+1+2+6+6Heightening strike
13
7
3
9th+6/+1+3+6+6Improved uncanny dodge
14
7
4
10th+7/+2+3+7+7Command magic 2/day, martial mage +3
15
8
4
11th+8/+3+3+7+7Arcane sight
16
8
4
12th+9/+4+4+8+8Chaining strike
17
8
4
13th+9/+4+4+8+8Sublime focus
18
9
4
14th+10/+5+4+9+9Martial mage +4
19
9
4
15th+11/+6/+1+5+9+9Command magic 3/day
20
9
5
16th+12/+7/+2+5+10+10Quickening strike
21
10
5
17th+12/+7/+2+5+10+10Free movement
22
10
5
18th+13/+8/+3+6+11+11Martial mage +5
23
11
5
19th+14/+9/+4+6+11+11Master of strikes
24
11
5
20th+15/+10/+5+6+12+12Arcane assault, command magic 4/day
25
12
6

   Class Skills (6 + Int modifier per level, x4 at 1st level): Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Martial Lore (Int), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language, Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha)

Class Features:
All the following are class features of the sublime shaper.

   Weapon and Armor Proficiency: As a sublime shaper, you are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.  Some of your class features, as noted below, rely on you being no more than lightly armored and unencumbered.
   As a sublime shaper, you can shape formulae while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.  However, like any other arcane spellcaster, you incur a chance of arcane spell failure when wearing medium or heavy armor or when using a shield.  This only applies to the formulae you know as a sublime shaper, and you might incur arcane spell failure chance for formulae received from other spellshaper classes.

   Formulae: You begin your career with knowledge of some arcane formulae.  You have access to two circles of your choice, which you select at 1st level.
   Once you know a formula, you must prepare it before you can use it (see Formulae and Maneuvers Prepared, below).  A formula usable by a sublime shaper is considered a spell-like ability unless otherwise noted in its description.  Unlike most other spell-like abilities, arcane formulae are subject to arcane spell failure chance, as described in Weapon and Armor Proficiency above.  The save DC for a formula that allows a save is 10 + formula level + your Charisma modifier.
   You learn additional formulae at higher levels, as described below in Formulae and Maneuvers Known.  To learn or shape a formula, you must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the formula level, as well as meeting the formula's prerequisite.

   Maneuvers: You begin your career with knowledge of some martial maneuvers.  You have access to two disciplines of your choice, which you select at 1st level.
   Once you know a maneuver, you must ready it before you can use it (see Formulae and Maneuvers Prepared, below).  A maneuver usable by a sublime shaper is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description.  Your maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and you do not provoke attacks of opportunity when you initiate one.  For the purpose of determining the save DC for a maneuver that allows a save, you use your Charisma modifier in place of the listed ability score modifier.
   You learn additional maneuvers at higher levels, as described below in Formulae and Maneuvers Known.  You must meet a maneuver's prerequisite to learn it.

   Formulae and Maneuvers Known: Unlike most spellshapers and martial adepts, you draw your magical and martial powers from the same source: intense meditation and focus.  As such, you access and learn formulae and maneuvers in the same way, drawing upon them as though they were the same type of ability.  You begin your career with knowledge of six abilities, and you can choose to distribute these six abilities between formulae and maneuvers as you see fit.  For example, you might choose to know three formulae and three maneuvers, four formulae and two maneuvers, two formulae and four maneuvers, and so on.
   You learn additional formulae and maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on the class table.  Whenever you gain a new ability known, you can choose whether to learn an arcane formula or a martial maneuver.
   Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sublime shaper level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), you can choose to learn a new formula or maneuver in place of one you already know.  In effect, you lose the old ability in exchange for the new one.  You can choose a new formula or maneuver of any level you like, as long as you observe your restriction on the highest-level formulae and maneuvers you know; you need not replace the old ability with an ability of the same level.  Moreover, you need not replace an ability with another of the same type: you can choose to exchange a maneuver for a formula or vice versa.  For example, upon reaching 10th level, you could trade in a single 1st-, 2nd-, 3rd-, or 4th-level maneuver or formula for a maneuver or formula (either) of 5th level or lower, as long as you meet the prerequisites of the new ability.  You can swap only a single ability at any given level.

   Formulae and Maneuvers Prepared: You can prepare four of your abilities known at 1st level.  As you advance in level and learn more formulae and maneuvers, you are able to prepare more, though you must still choose with formulae and maneuvers to prepare.  You ready your maneuvers and prepare your formulae by meditating and exercising for 5 minutes.  The formulae and maneuvers that you choose remain prepared until you decide to meditate again and change them.  You need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to prepare your abilities: any time you spend 5 minutes in meditation, you can change your prepared formulae and abilities.
   You are not restricted in whether you prepare formulae or maneuvers, nor must you restrict yourself to one type of ability.  You can divide up your prepared abilities between formulae and maneuvers as you see fit.  For example, at 1st level, you could prepare two formulae and two maneuvers, three formulae and one maneuver, one formula and three maneuvers, and so on.
   You begin an encounter with all your prepared formulae and maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times you might have already used them since you chose them.  When you shape a formula or initiate a maneuver, you expend it for the current encounter, so each of your prepared abilities can be used once per encounter (unless you recover them, as described below).
   Whenever you initiate a maneuver, you can choose one expended formula to recover, which is then available for use in a subsequent round.  Similarly, whenever you shape a formula, you can choose one expended maneuver to recover.  You can recover only one ability per round in this way.  However, whenever you make a full attack, you may choose two expended abilities to recover.
   In addition, once per encounter, you can change your prepared formulae and maneuvers as a swift action.  However, changing your prepared abilities in this way leaves all of your formulae and maneuvers expended--even those that had already been prepared.

   Stances Known: You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to you.  At 2nd, 5th, 9th, 14th, and 20th level, you can choose additional stances.  Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them.  All the stances you know are available to you at all times, and you can change the stance you currently use as a swift action.  A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description.
   Unlike with maneuvers, you cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one you already know.

   Sublime Guard (Ex): When wielding a light weapon (or any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such as a rapier, whip, or spiked chain) in one hand and nothing in the other, you do not provoke attacks of opportunity for making spellshape attacks or shaping arcane formulae.  In addition, you are immune to the harmful effects of any formulae that you shape.
   This only applies to the formulae you know as a sublime shaper, and you might still provoke attacks of opportunity or suffer harmful effects when shaping formulae received from other spellshaper classes.

   Prestidigitation (Sp): As a sublime shaper, you can cast prestidigitation at will as a spell-like ability.  Your caster level with this ability is equal to your shaper level.

   Spellshape Attacks (Sp): Among the first abilities you learn as a sublime shaper are your spellshape attacks.  At 1st level, you learn the two spellshape attacks associated with the circles to which you have access.

   AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light or no armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield.  This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed.  However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless.
   This bonus does not stack with similar AC bonuses, such as from taking levels in disciple of the circles.

   Detect Magic (Sp): At 2nd level and higher, you can use detect magic a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).  Your caster level with this ability is equal to your shaper level.

   Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain the ability to react to danger before your senses would normally allow you to do so.  You retain your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if you are caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.  However, you still lose your Dexterity bonus to AC if you are immobilized.
   If you already have uncanny dodge from another class (barbarian or rogue, for example), you automatically gain improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

   Empowering Strike (Su): Starting at 4th level, when you successfully attack an enemy with a martial strike, you can choose to empower an arcane formula that you shape before the end of your next turn (as by the Empowered Formula metashaping feat).  This ability has no metashaping degree, nor does it increase the effective level of the formula for the purpose of applying metashaping feats.
   Alternatively, when you successfully attack an enemy with an arcane formula, you can choose to empower a martial strike that you initiate before the end of your next turn (using the same mechanics as the Empowered Formula metashaping feat).
   You do not need to know the Empowered Formula feat to use this ability.  You can use this ability once per encounter.

   Rebuke Spell (Su): When you reach 4th level, you gain the ability to counter another spellcaster's magic through pure force of will.  This ability functions just as if you were using dispel magic to counter the spell, except that you add your shaper level (instead of your caster level) to the d20 roll and the maximum bonus on your dispel check is +20 (instead of +10).  You don't need to identify the spell the opposing spellcaster is casting to make the attempt.  Countering a spell in this way is an immediate action.  You can attempt to counterspell a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.

   Command Magic (Su): Once per day beginning at 5th level, you can cause a spell or spell-like ability targeted against you to rebound onto the originator as a free action.  This ability otherwise functions as the spell turning spell (caster level equals your shaper level).
   You can use this ability twice per day at 10th level, three times per day at 15th level, and four times per day at 20th level.

   Martial Mage (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you draw strength from blending magic and melee combat.  Whenever you injure an opponent with a melee attack, you gain a +2 bonus to your shaper level until the end of your next turn.
   In addition, whenever you successfully strike an opponent with one of your spellshape attacks, you gain a +2 bonus on all attack and damage rolls with melee weapons until the end of your next turn.
   These bonus increase to +3 at 10th level, to +4 at 14th level, and to +5 at 18th level.

   Sense Magic (Su): Beginning at 7th level, you can spend 10 minutes focusing upon a weapon, suit of armor, or lamen.  If you succeed on a level check (DC 10 + the caster level or shaper level of the item), you can identify the properties of that item, including its enhancement bonus and special abilities.  This ability does not reveal the properties of artifacts or legacy weapons, though it does indicate that such items are significantly powerful.

   Heightening Strike (Su): Starting at 8th level, when you successfully attack an enemy with a martial strike, you can choose to heighten an arcane formula that you shape before the end of your next turn (as by the Heighten Formula metashaping feat), up to a maximum level equal to 1/2 your shaper level.  This ability has no metashaping degree, nor does it increase the effective level of the formula for the purpose of applying metashaping feats.
   Alternatively, when you successfully attack an enemy with an arcane formula, you can choose to heighten a martial strike that you initiate before the end of your next turn (using the same mechanics as the Heighten Formula metashaping feat), up to a maximum level equal to 1/2 your initiator level.
   You do not need to know the Heighten Formula feat to use this ability.  You can use this ability once per encounter.

   Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 9th level and higher, you can no longer be flanked; you can react to opponents on opposite sides of you as easily as you can react to a single attacker.  See the barbarian class feature (page 26 of the Player's Handbook) for more information.

   Arcane Sight (Sp): Beginning at 11th level, you can use arcane sight as a swift action a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1).  Your caster level with this ability is equal to your shaper level.

   Chaining Strike (Su): Beginning at 12th level, when you successfully attack an enemy with a martial strike, you can choose to chain an arcane formula that you shape before the end of your next turn (as by the Chain Spellshape metashaping feat).  This ability has no metashaping degree, nor does it increase the effective level of the formula for the purpose of applying metashaping feats.
   Alternatively, when you successfully attack an enemy with an arcane formula, you can choose to make a full attack, rather than a single melee attack, as a part of initiating a martial strike that you initiate before the end of your next turn.  If you do so, the strike affects each target that you hit in melee combat during that turn.  This full attack does not allow you to recover any expended abilities other than the formula that you would recover as a result of initiating the maneuver.
   You do not need to know the Chain Spellshape feat to use this ability.  You can use this ability once per encounter.

   Sublime Focus (Ex): Starting at 13th level, your fusion of arcane and martial techniques gives you unrivaled mental and physical reflexes.  If you succeed on a Reflex or Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Reflex half, Will half, or Will partial), you instead negate the effect.  In addition, whenever you fail a Will save against an effect with a duration greater than 1 round, you can attempt a Reflex save 1 round later at the same DC to negate the effect.  You only get this one extra chance to succeed on your saving throw.
   You do not gain the benefit of sublime focus when you are unconscious or sleeping.

   Quickening Strike (Su): Starting at 16th level, when you successfully attack an enemy with a martial strike, you can choose to quicken an arcane formula that you shape before the end of your next turn (as by the Quicken Spellshape metashaping feat).  This ability has no metashaping degree, nor does it increase the effective level of the formula for the purpose of applying metashaping feats.
   Alternatively, when you successfully attack an enemy with an arcane formula, you can choose to quicken a martial strike that you initiate before the end of your next turn (using the same mechanics as the Quicken Spellshape metashaping feat).
   You do not need to know the Quicken Spellshape feat to use this ability.  You can use this ability once per encounter.

   Free Movement (Ex): At 17th level and higher, you can slip out of bonds, grapples, and even the effects of confining spells easily.  This ability duplicates the effect of a freedom of movement spell, except that it is always active.  You lose this benefit when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

   Master of Strikes: When you reach 19th level, you fully master the art of combining spell and steel.  You can use your heightening strike, empowering strike, chaining strike, and quickening strike abilities twice per encounter, rather than only once.

   Arcane Assault (Su): When you reach 20th level, you learn to combine your martial and magical training in a single attack.  As a full-round action, you can combine a martial strike and a major formula.  The strike must require that you make a melee attack, and the formula must be on that alters a spellshape attack.
   When you unleash an arcane assault, you channel a spellshape attack and an arcane formula through your weapon (see the spellshape champion's spellshape channeling class feature) at the same time as you initiate a martial strike.  The resultant attack deals the extra damage from both the maneuver and the formula, and a creature struck by the attack is subject to the effects of both abilities.  Combining a formula and a maneuver in this way expends both of them as though you had initiated or shaped them normally.
   The attack that results from combining an arcane formula and a martial maneuver in this way is a supernatural ability that is treated as having a level equal to the highest level of formula that you can shape or the highest level of maneuver that you can initiate (whichever is higher), though save DCs (if any) are unchanged.
   You can use this ability once per encounter.  If your arcane assault misses, it does not count as a use of the ability.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2012, 10:25:15 PM by DonQuixote »
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Ziegander

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2012, 12:03:18 PM »
I was highly skeptical of this class. I didn't know how you were going to pull it off. I was wrong. Wow, I love this. If you can eliminate those two dead levels this will be a true thing of beauty.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2012, 12:22:17 PM »
In the Formula & Maneuvers known section, you talk about 10 and 6 in different places.
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2012, 04:16:38 PM »
In the Formula & Maneuvers known section, you talk about 10 and 6 in different places.

That is because I am a complete idiot.  Fixed.

I was highly skeptical of this class. I didn't know how you were going to pull it off. I was wrong. Wow, I love this. If you can eliminate those two dead levels this will be a true thing of beauty.

It actually turned out a lot cleaner and neater than I thought it would, so, yeah.  I'm pretty happy with it.

Can't figure out what to do for the dead levels at the moment, though.  I could move Improved Uncanny Dodge up or down one, but that still leaves me with a hole to fill...
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Ziegander

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2012, 04:23:20 PM »
Imp. U. Dodge to 9th level, Arcane Sight to 11th level, and add an ability at 13th that is simultaneously Slippery Mind and Ref/Will "mettle?"

Not sure what you'd call it, but:

X Ability X (Ex): Whenever you succeed at a Reflex or Will save with an entry of Reflex Half, Reflex Partial, or Will Partial you suffer no ill effects rather than a halved or partial effect. Furthermore, if you are affected by an effect that calls for a Will saving throw and you fail your save, you may attempt it again 1 round later at the same DC, but replacing the Will save with a Reflex save.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2012, 05:22:59 PM »
Good thoughts.  Done.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline Ziegander

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2012, 05:47:57 PM »
From Sense Magic: "focusing upon a weapon, suit of armor, or lamen" ... what? What's a lamen?

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2012, 05:52:29 PM »
A thing that marked one of the points at which I lost control of how much material I write.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2012, 11:53:50 PM »
Doesn't the amount of abilities known and readied seem a bit... excessive? I mean... a swordsage only gets 6 known and 4 readied at 1st. This guy could in theory choose all maneuvers and get 10 known and 4 readied, and he gets Weapon Finesse for free instead of that silly Discipline Focus ability, a definite improvement for many characters taking this class. Why should someone who dabbles/multitasks between maneuvers and spellshaping be a better martial adept than someone dedicated to just maneuvers?
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2012, 12:04:09 AM »
It would be a little difficult to do so at 1st level (most disciplines only have 2-3 1st level non-stance maneuvers, and you only get 2 disciplines), but it's an amazing dip at higher levels. Indeed, perhaps too amazing. See also the Dragonheart Adept. The fact that you can pick your own disciplines (Iron Heart and Shadow Hand, for example) makes it extra nice. Having only 2 disciplines is a bit of a pain, but since you get two circles to go with them, and most martial adepts only have 2 or 3 disciplines you'd want to dip from anyways, it doesn't mean as much.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2012, 01:10:11 PM »
Grah.  I always forget about dipping when designing classes.  It's such a pain.

As I've said, I have very little time at the moment, but I'll pour some thought into how to address this one.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2012, 11:35:12 PM »
Even not considering the dipping, this is still much better than a swordsage, even if you play a single classed one. Wouldn't you agree? I just think 10/6 is too much for known/readied abilities. If it capped at a lower level, like the duskblade caps at 6th level spells, it might be OK. But no full caster/martial adept gets that many. I kind of think that this and a few other of your base classes would likely have been better as PrCs. This would be a perfect candidate for a duel progression PrC.
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 01:45:45 PM »
Solution to the dipping!

Quote
Unlike most martial adepts and spellshapers, you do not grow in power when you advance in other classes.  Instead, your initiator level and shaper level are equal to your sublime shaper level, without counting any levels in other classes.  (Prestige class levels that would increase your initiator level or shaper level continue to do so normally.)

How does that sound?


I could cut abilities at 1st level down to 6/4, meaning that you're stretched very thin between your maneuvers and formulae.  Might impose on playability a bit, but that won't necessarily be a bad thing.

Edit: Changes applied.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 01:50:16 PM by DonQuixote »
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Offline Garryl

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 04:30:38 PM »
Solution to the dipping!

Quote
Unlike most martial adepts and spellshapers, you do not grow in power when you advance in other classes.  Instead, your initiator level and shaper level are equal to your sublime shaper level, without counting any levels in other classes.  (Prestige class levels that would increase your initiator level or shaper level continue to do so normally.)

How does that sound?

It sounds horrible. It negates one of the best core mechanics of ToB/Spellshaping entirely, the awesome ability to multiclass without giving up any pretense of level-appropriate abilities. We just want a class that is of a comparable value to the others on the market (+/- a bit because most people agree that the Swordsage is slightly below that), not something that blows them out of the water. Just make it less front-loaded. It's a good design policy in general, anyways.

Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2012, 04:50:51 PM »
Redacted the initiator and shaper level change.  The formulae and maneuvers known/prepared remain reduced, but I'm not sure if that's enough.

I'm thinking I might drop Weapon Finesse and Forceful Blows.  Given that you're using maneuvers and formulae, the damage from Forceful Blows isn't really necessary, and Weapon Finesse would make a fine feat tax for the class.  Alternatively, you could always play a Strength-based character.

On the other hand, the reduction in prepared formulae and maneuvers is not insignificant, given the class's recovery mechanic.  Other than that one swift action per encounter, your only way of recovering maneuvers is shaping formulae, and your only way of recovering formulae is initiating maneuvers.  Do note that a member of this class does not qualify for Adaptive Style, since such a character isn't a crusader, swordsage, or warblade.  If you acquire that feat through multiclassing, my ruling would be that you cannot use it to reprepare your Sublime Shaper maneuvers, as they are technically grouped together with your formulae, and that would be a mess.

Thoughts?
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2012, 12:45:15 AM »
Redacted the initiator and shaper level change.  The formulae and maneuvers known/prepared remain reduced, but I'm not sure if that's enough.

I'm thinking I might drop Weapon Finesse and Forceful Blows.  Given that you're using maneuvers and formulae, the damage from Forceful Blows isn't really necessary, and Weapon Finesse would make a fine feat tax for the class.  Alternatively, you could always play a Strength-based character.

On the other hand, the reduction in prepared formulae and maneuvers is not insignificant, given the class's recovery mechanic.  Other than that one swift action per encounter, your only way of recovering maneuvers is shaping formulae, and your only way of recovering formulae is initiating maneuvers.  Do note that a member of this class does not qualify for Adaptive Style, since such a character isn't a crusader, swordsage, or warblade.  If you acquire that feat through multiclassing, my ruling would be that you cannot use it to reprepare your Sublime Shaper maneuvers, as they are technically grouped together with your formulae, and that would be a mess.

Thoughts?
IMO, the 1x swift action per encounter is enough compared to what the official ToB classes get. Especially the Swordsage, which is the class that most closely parallels this one.
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Offline Bauglir

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2012, 11:55:09 AM »
Indeed, the swift action is a mechanic basically superior to every other method out there. Encounters will often be over before you blow through all your prepared formulae and/or maneuvers twice.

Offline Garryl

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2012, 09:51:36 PM »
Especially since this class's swift action recovery carries Adaptive Style's effect of letting you swap your readied maneuver (and formulae).

Offline phaedrusxy

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2012, 12:48:07 AM »
Especially since this class's swift action recovery carries Adaptive Style's effect of letting you swap your readied maneuver (and formulae).
Yeah, I think just having that is enough of a recovery mechanic, in fact. You're leaps and bounds ahead of the swordsage, and I'd argue still ahead even of a swordsage who actually took Adaptive Style.
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Offline DonQuixote

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Re: Base Class - Sublime Shaper
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2012, 07:46:51 PM »
Welp, removed Weapon Finesse and Forceful Blows.
“Hast thou not felt in forest gloom, as gloaming falls on dark-some dells, when comes a whisper, hum and hiss; savage growling sounds a-near, dazzling flashes around thee flicker, whirring waxes and fills thine ears: has thou not felt then grisly horrors that grip thee and hold thee?”