Author Topic: The Truenamer - The Concept, The Problems, Possible Solutions [3.5 Discussion]  (Read 20486 times)

Offline Ziegander

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Foreword
As the title says, this is, at least initially, a thread only for the discussion of the Truenamer class, not a thread for a new iteration of the class. I want to explore the various themes of the Truenamer, both as presented in Tome of Magic and as presented in other, non-D&D media, themes both literary and mechanical. I also would like to explore existing efforts to make the Truenamer class playable, to "fix" the Truenamer class, or to rewrite the Truenamer class.

The goal of this exploration is to come to a conclusion of how best to execute the Concept, what the existing Problems are with the published Truenamer, and to brainstorm possible Solutions. Once I've come to these conclusions, I hope to produce a decidedly not quick-and-dirty fix for the Truenamer in the form of a complete overhaul. The Truenamer concept has always been a favorite of mine; the WotC implementation of it was awful and even the best efforts of homebrewers that I've seen fall short at a fundamental level. It's about time I did something about that.

The Concept
So, from works like Hellboy to Eragon, and many in between, the use of True Names as a magical device, apart from sorcery has been around for a long time. Even the wizard, Gandalf, used crude forms of this linguistically-based magic as he opened mines with Elvish words, and shook the earth with words spoken in the Black Tongue of Mordor. True Names are often used in conjunction with the notion of a dead True Language, the language of the gods, or the language of the cosmos, but this is not always the case. One thing all uses of the True Name concept has in common, or at least to my knowledge, is that knowing a creature's True Name always grants you great power over that creature. The depth and breadth of that power changes depending on the source material, but it seems always to be the case that possession of a True Name is synonymous with power.

In translating this concept from literature to D&D, the authors of the Tome of Magic used a slightly different interpretation of True Names than I have seen used before. In D&D, a Truenamer uses Utterances, phrases of words of Truespeak (the true language of the cosmos), to effect creatures, objects, and places. The Truenamer never needs to know the True Names of anything to use his magic power, but he can research a creature's True Name in order to gain bonuses to his Utterance's effects. A, perhaps, more apt name of the class then would be Truespeaker. As I understand it, D&D Truespeak isn't even actually the secret language of the universe, but a sort of pidgin dialect of it that represents mortals' best approximation. Which doesn't seem very impressive at all, really.

Now, the idea that speaking the (proper) language of the cosmos gives one command over primordial magic power is one that really grabs the attention, and combining that concept with the concept of True Names is one that sounds very powerful indeed. However, I feel that D&D went about this in the reverse order. It shouldn't be easy to determine a given creature's True Name, by any means, but it should be that much harder to fluently speak a turn of phrase drawn from the secret language of the universe. This is the Truenamer, after all, and knowing a thing's True Name is how you wield power over it. The basic effects of a Truenamer seem like they should revolve around the acquiring of a creature's True Name, and the more advanced and highly impressive effects should be "utterances of Truespeak" wherein the Truenamer uses a thing's True Name in conjunction with a phrase of Truespeak that declares something about that thing (a change, a curse, something).

Third Party Truenaming
There has been a lot of hubbub made over the years over the Truenamer presented in the Tome of Magic. A lot of discussion about its flaws, a lot of quick fixes to the Truespeak check DCs, and even some third-party truenaming design (either with new magic systems that incorporate True Names, or with new True Name themed classes). I myself have produced a "quick-fix" version of the Truenamer before, as well as two additional truespeaking classes, the Truthseeker and the Egocaster (I'm not particularly proud of these works). I know of one Guide to Truenaming, written by Zaq at GitP, that goes to great lengths to outline the flaws of the Truenamer class, but also to illustrate the rare strengths of the class and give as much advice as possible about playing the class. There are also two homebrewed ground-up redesigns of the class that I know of, both of these also produced at GitP, the first written by Kyeudo (and organized into a PDF), and the second written by Kellus. Paizo Publishing even took a foray into truenaming with the Words of Power sub-system, presented in the Ultimate Magic supplement to its Pathfinder d20 rules system. If you're interested in the concept of True Names, then I urge you to review all of the links given above. They are valuable resources and innovative designs.

Problems With the Truenamer
Tome of Magic
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Kyeudo's Truename Magic
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Kellus' Truename Magic
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Paizo's Words of Power
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(More discussion to come...)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 11:42:22 PM by Ziegander »

Offline Ziegander

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The Truthseeker
**WORK IN PROGRESS**



HD: d8

Alignment: Any

LevelBABFortRefWillSpecial
1st+0+0+2+2Dark Knowledge (Offense), Lore, Truename Research
2nd+1+0+3+3Strike True (+1d6, +0)
3rd+2+1+3+3Zone of Revelation (See Invisibility)
4th+3+1+4+4Strike True (+1d6, +1)
5th+3+1+4+4Dark Knowledge (Defense)
6th+4+2+5+5Strike True (+2d6, +1)
7th+5+2+5+5Zone of Revelation (Zone of Truth)
8th+6/+1+2+6+6Strike True (+2d6, +2)
9th+6/+1+3+6+6Dark Knowledge (Bane)
10th+7/+2+3+7+7Strike True (+3d6, +2)
11th+8/+3+3+7+7Zone of Revelation (Telling)
12th+9/+4+4+8+8Strike True (+3d6, +3)
13th+9/+4+4+8+8Dark Knowledge (Skill)
14th+10/+5+4+9+9Strike True (+4d6, +3)
15th+11/+6/+1+5+9+9Zone of Revelation (True Seeing)
16th+12/+7/+2+5+10+10Strike True (+4d6, +4)
17th+12/+7/+2+5+10+10Dark Knowledge (Power)
18th+13/+8/+3+6+11+11Strike True (+5d6, +4)
19th+14/+9/+4+6+11+11Zone of Revelation (Foresight)
20th+15/+10/+5+6+12+12True Discernment, Strike True (+5d6, +5)

Class Skills (6 + Int per level): Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Disguise, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Jump, Knowledge (Any), Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Swim, and Use Magic Device.

Weapon & Armor Proficiency: A Truthseeker is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with light armor, and with shields (but not Tower Shields).

Dark Knowledge (Ex): A Truthseeker is able to share his vast wealth of knowledge with his allies in the form of tangible bonuses in combat. Whenever a Truthseeker makes a Knowledge check to identify a creature's abilities and vulnerabilities, if that check succeeds, then, depending on his check and his class level, he may grant himself and any allies that can both see and hear him special bonuses as outlined below:

 -- At 1st level, he grants himself and his allies a +1 insight bonus to attack rolls against the identified creature. This bonus increases to +2 at 5th level, +3 at 9th level, +4 at 13th level, and +5 at 17th level.

 -- At 5th level, with a Knowledge check result of at least 13+CR, he grants himself and his allies a +2 insight bonus to AC and saving throws against the identified creature. This bonus increases to +3 at 9th level, +4 at 13th level, and +5 at 17th level.

 -- At 9th level, with a Knowledge check result of at least 16+CR, he and his allies deal 3d6 additional damage to the identified creature. This additional damage increases to 4d6 at 13th level, and 5d6 at 17th level.

 -- At 13th level, with a Knowledge check result of at least 19+CR, he grants himself and his allies a +16 insight bonus to all opposed skill and ability checks against the identified creature. This bonus increases to +20 at 17th level.

 -- At 17th level, with a Knowledge check result of at least 22+CR, he grants himself and his allies a +5 bonus to effective character level (for all level-based, and HD-based effects) against the identified creature.

Lore (Ex): As Bardic Knowledge.

Truename Research: At 1st level, a Truthseeker gains the Truename Research feat as a bonus feat regardless of whether he meets its prerequisites. He has a Truenamer Level equal to his class level.

Strike True (Su): Starting at 2nd level, when a Truthseeker attacks a creature, if the Truthseeker knows that creature's True Name, then he deals 1d6 additional damage to that creature and an additional 1d6 every four levels after 2nd. Starting at 4th level, when he attacks a creature, if he knows that creature's True Name, then he gets a +1 bonus to his attack roll against that creature, +1 every four levels after 4th.

Zone of Revelation (Su): Starting at 3rd level, while in a location that the Truthseeker knows the True Name of, out to a maximum of 5ft per class level (limited by the size of the location itself), the Truthseeker can see invisible creatures and objects as the See Invisibility spell. Every four levels after 3rd, the Truthseeker uncovers additional truths in his immediate location as follows:

 -- Starting at 7th level, in the area of his Zone of Revelation, as long as the Truthseeker knows the True Name of his location, creatures find themselves unable to tell lies as the Zone of Truth spell.

 -- Starting at 11th level, in the area of his Zone of Revelation, as long as the Truthseeker knows the True Name of his location, he may produce his choice of a Speak with Dead, Speak with Plants, or Stone Tell effect as the spells, once each per location.

 -- Starting at 15th level, in the area of his Zone of Revelation, as long as the Truthseeker knows the True Name of his location, he can discern the true nature of things as the True Seeing spell.

 -- Starting at 19th level, in the area of his Zone of Revelation, as long as the Truthseeker knows the True Name of his location, he knows the number and location of all Hostile creatures, he cannot be surprised by such creatures, nor caught flat-footed, and he gains a +5 bonus to AC and Reflex saves against those creatures.

True Discernment (Ex): Dunno yet.

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« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 02:36:41 PM by Ziegander »

Offline Ziegander

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Reserved Post #2.

Offline Ziegander

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Reserved Post #3.

Offline Ziegander

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Reserved Post #4.

Offline Ziegander

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Last Reserved Post.

I'd love to hear from other members of the community about this issue: your thoughts on the Truenamer concept, your perceptions of the problems the Tome of Magic Truenamer faces, and your ideas as to possible solutions for a fully redesigned Truenamer class. Is anyone on board?

Offline GMarshal

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http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115
is a good reference about why trunamers aren't as good as they should be.

I'm a huge fan of the lore behind the truenamer, but the concept falls flat in its execution. For one, the Law of Resistance and the Law of Sequence seem to exist for no other reason than to annoy the player. Secondly the utterances are generally not that good. The early ones are passable early on, but up until you get broken gate the invocations at your disposal are pretty sucky, with one or two exceptions. Any revamping of the system would probably require rebuilding the class from the bottom up, in my opinion.

Offline Ziegander

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http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214115
is a good reference about why trunamers aren't as good as they should be.

Had that open before I made the thread. :)

Quote
For one, the Law of Resistance and the Law of Sequence seem to exist for no other reason than to annoy the player.

Indeed. I can see what they were trying to do, but they failed, miserably, in my opinion.

Quote
Secondly the utterances are generally not that good.

Also, a very valid complaint. Some of them are passable, as you say, but most of them are rubbish. And, from my own experience, there are barely enough passable utterances to make ONE passable character, let alone any other characters out of the class.

Quote
Any revamping of the system would probably require rebuilding the class from the bottom up, in my opinion.

I agree. That's precisely the reason for all of these reserved posts. I'm interested in a full redesign, and I know it's going to require a lot of work. I've seen too many flawed quick fixes of the Truenamer in the past. It's time for something new (and hopefully improved).

Offline Amechra

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I personally think that the problem with needing a high skill boost is a necessary evil; consider that any Truenamer worth their salt will already have a +3 to that total through Skill Focus (Truenaming), and the fact that a Masterwork Tool gives it a +2...

That brings it up to slightly above 100%, unless you already took that stuff into account.

And they probably are going to craft an Amulet of the Silver Tongue at some point, which is pretty much a given.

So at least he removed the need to go hog-wild when boosting your Truespeaking.
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Offline Ziegander

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I personally think that the problem with needing a high skill boost is a necessary evil; consider that any Truenamer worth their salt will already have a +3 to that total through Skill Focus (Truenaming), and the fact that a Masterwork Tool gives it a +2...

That brings it up to slightly above 100%, unless you already took that stuff into account.

A Tome of Magic Truenamer 20 with max ranks, Int 34, Skill Focus, and a Masterwork Tool (if the DM allows it, I would, but...) still has only a +40 modifier to his checks, which means that for each creature, his Utterances have a 30% chance of success if he's not used them yet in the day. Still pretty ridiculously bad. I don't know where you're getting 100% from.

Quote
And they probably are going to craft an Amulet of the Silver Tongue at some point, which is pretty much a given.

Yes, they are, which is just another failure of the system in my opinion. If you're going to use a skill-based mechanic, but require the player to invest resources into it beyond ranks in the skill, really any resources at all, then, in my opinion, the mechanic has failed. And the fact that the Truenamer can become amazingly disruptively powerful with some pretty simple optimization is just further failure.

Quote
So at least he removed the need to go hog-wild when boosting your Truespeaking.

Who were you talking about?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2012, 12:27:25 AM by Ziegander »

Offline Solo

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There is nothing wrong with Truenaming! It is as powerful as monks!
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Offline Amechra

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I personally think that the problem with needing a high skill boost is a necessary evil; consider that any Truenamer worth their salt will already have a +3 to that total through Skill Focus (Truenaming), and the fact that a Masterwork Tool gives it a +2...

That brings it up to slightly above 100%, unless you already took that stuff into account.

A Tome of Magic Truenamer 20 with max ranks, Int 34, Skill Focus, and a Masterwork Tool (if the DM allows it, I would, but...) still has only a +40 modifier to his checks, which means that for each creature, his Utterances have a 30% chance of success if he's not used them yet in the day. Still pretty ridiculously bad. I don't know where you're getting 100% from.

Quote
And they probably are going to craft an Amulet of the Silver Tongue at some point, which is pretty much a given.

Yes, they are, which is just another failure of the system in my opinion. If you're going to use a skill-based mechanic, but require the player to invest resources into it beyond ranks in the skill, really any resources at all, then, in my opinion, the mechanic has failed. And the fact that the Truenamer can become amazingly disruptively powerful with some pretty simple optimization is just further failure.

Quote
So at least he removed the need to go hog-wild when boosting your Truespeaking.

Who were you talking about?

Sorry, I was ignoring the ToM Truenamer as such an abomination deserves, and was instead referring to Kyeudo's fix.
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Offline Ziegander

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Okay, so the Paizo Words of Power system is so bad that I can't bring myself to do a write up of its pros and cons. Since the thing I was going to do after that is discuss possible solutions, let's just jump right to it.

Problem 1) Truename Magic isn't really focused on using the True Names of things.

 -- Solution: True Names aren't used because in the current system (and homebrew systems) not only does knowing a True Name not offer that much of an increase in power, it also takes a lot of time and money to acquire just one. They're basically worthless. My solution would be the Truename Research feat, which Truenamers would get for free at 1st level, that automatically gives you a thing's True Name when you succeed at identifying it. So for creatures that means, if you succeed on your Knowledge check, then you learn their True Names. For places and items? A bit more fuzzy, but I know it could work.

Problem 2) Knowing something's True Name isn't worth the effort.

 -- Solution: Well, since my previous solution would make obtaining True Names fairly easy, especially for True Namers, making that knowledge worth the effort shouldn't be too hard, but, still, I want the effect to be much more remarkable than a +2 bonus to the save DC and to spell penetration checks with Utterances. I want knowing a thing's True Name to be the cornerstone of my system. I don't have any ideas here. Help me!

Problem 3) Truename Magic is based on thoroughly broken skill-based casting systems.

 -- Solution: The thought here is that acquiring True Names is relatively painless, but that you either know the True Names or you don't. You shouldn't be completely worthless if you don't know a True Name, and you can't be completely broken if you know all the True Names. I don't have much of an idea here, but I do think that, for the most part, magic produced by Truenamers will follow a "magic transparency" law, and be subject to Spell Resistance and allow saving throws.

Problem 4) The Truespeak skill doesn't do anything unless you're a Truenamer.

 -- Solution: My solution is to get rid of this stupid skill. A skill check to see if you can successfully speak the really tough language of the cosmos just seems really inane. Especially when that's literally all it does. Now, Kyeudo gave the skill some additional uses beyond that, and allowed non-Truenamers to use it to speak Utterances, but most of his new uses can be handled with other skills, like Spellcraft. So, I say, get rid of it. No more rolling a check to see if you get to do something this round.

Problem 5) Utterances spoken in the language of the cosmos don't do anything useful. Either that or they become broken.

 -- Solution: The way I see it, learning to speak an Utterance, a phrase out of the language that existed before time itself, should be a lot more difficult than learning to speak a True Name. Utterances should be amazingly powerful, and a given Truenamer shouldn't know very many of them. At the same time, they shouldn't become disruptively broken. Since having a super high skill modifier won't help you with my proposed solutions above, some of that danger is mitigated for me, but we still don't want Wishes being thrown around for free either. We want awesome power, but with some limits. I'm not sure how I want to handle it yet. Help!

Offline RedWarlock

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I can't say I'm an expert on the Words of Power system, but it's not as much a truename-type system, and more an attempt as a construct-your-own-spell system. (Great intent, but they're trying to keep it in equal contest to the existing 3.5/PF casting, which is marvelously borked.) I've heard from friends that they really enjoy it in its customizability.

My personal view of its biggest flaws is that they have the added effects as addendums to a pre-existing spell-level, rather than scaling the base and having the effects alter the scale. This means that, for fire, for the most demonstrative example, they have several levels of fire base words which are nearly identical, except they sit at different levels. Then they have range words which set it at touch, ray, distant burst, etc, and require minimum spell levels.

I would rather have seen it do something where they set the base word, scaled to your level automatically, but making it a ray rather than touch costs one or two caster levels, making it a cone two more, or a fireball-style burst more than that. Each extra cost reduces its effective level, making it less powerful if you extend the range, but more powerful at close range. Maybe making it target enemies-only in the area effect costs an extra four or five levels, because that kind of control is challenging.
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Offline Amechra

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One thing to look at would be Kyeudo's fix; almost every Utterance has a stronger effect when you know something's truename; for example, most of the Perfected Map utterances that he made have the ability to replace their normal area with an entire location if you know the truename of the area; so you could scry an entire building, rather than a small area.

Which does get borked with Word of Genesis, though; that particular Utterance was Genesis... with the added bonus of you knowing the entire demiplane's Truename.
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Offline Ziegander

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One thing to look at would be Kyeudo's fix; almost every Utterance has a stronger effect when you know something's truename; for example, most of the Perfected Map utterances that he made have the ability to replace their normal area with an entire location if you know the truename of the area; so you could scry an entire building, rather than a small area.

Which does get borked with Word of Genesis, though; that particular Utterance was Genesis... with the added bonus of you knowing the entire demiplane's Truename.

The thing I want to try and do is make speaking a creature's True Name an important magical effect all by itself. Utterances, if they exist in any form, should be more difficult than speaking a True Name, and should come later in the Truenamer's career, I think. But what I want to start with is determining exactly what I want to happen when the Truenamer speaks a creature's (or object's or location's) True Name. It should probably offer the speaker a variety of influential effects over the affected thing.

Offline sirpercival

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That sounds kind of like Similarization, as per my Mentalist class (Magipunk, of course).  Take a gander for ideas, if you like.
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Offline Ziegander

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Okay, so I don't know what I'm going to call them, but the Truename Research feat grants the ability to learn the True Name of a creature, object, or location by succeeding on an appropriate Knowledge check (DC 10 + CR for creatures, DC 10 + CL for objects, DC 15 for well-known locations, DC 20 for out-of-the-way locations, DC 25 for obscure locations, and DC 30 for nearly unknown locations), and knowing the True Name of a creature, object, or location allows the Truenamer to use [...]s, which are at-will abilities, used as standard actions, which produce either a positive or negative effect on the named creature/object/location. These abilities can be resisted with a Will save and usually allow SR. Any character that qualifies can take the Truename Research feat and a character's Truenamer Level is equal to the total of its levels in Truenaming Classes + 1/2 its levels in other classes.

My thought now is that I will produce at least two classes - The Truthseeker, a grim, knowledgeable, detective type adventurer with lots of skills and decent fighting ability; and The Primespeaker, a silver-tongued, seeker of the First Word, who learns to speak in the tongues of dead gods and the primal language of the multiverse itself. Both of these classes get the Truename Research feat at 1st level, and the Primeseeker will use Utterances, which are linguistics-based powers similar to spells that combine Dark Speech with the Words of Creation, Power Words, and True Speech, the language of the cosmos.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2012, 04:05:11 PM by Ziegander »

Offline sirpercival

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I like this a lot.  Once you get some more down I may contribute.
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