K's Revised Necromancer Handbook Discussion

[prospero63]

What is your max rebuke build?

[midnight_v]

I found K's really useful for understanding the problems of Necromacy in D&D the dreadnecro handbook... why are there two? Someone should consolidate them. . .

[linklord231]

Regarding the whole "8th level drop point" debate:
The 8th level ability of the Dread Necromancer sets the control limit for animate dead to be based off of class level instead of caster level.  This means that taking levels in prestige classes will not advance this limit.  At first glance, this looks like a bad thing.
However, if you do some quick math, you realize that this is no problem whatsoever.  The "normal" control limit for a 20th level character (disregarding things like the Deathbound domain) is 4*20 = 80 Hit Dice.  A Dread Necro can get that right at 8th level with an 18 starting Cha + 2 racial + 2 levels.  Your control limit would be (4+6)*8 = 80.  Any more Cha boosts, such as your +6 cloak, +5 inherent, et cetera, all increase your control limit. 
Yes, PrCing out at level 8 lessens your control limit compared to straight Dread Necro.  But your control limit is already obscenely large; much bigger than anybody else can get without caster level cheese.  So the question becomes this:  Would you rather have even more minions (whose power drops off at higher levels), or class features that are more useful than 12 levels of Dread Necro? 

[snakeman830]

My personal issue with dropping DN at 8 is that it severely limits your rebuking ability as well (and vampires/liches are excellent things to command if you can).

One more point to bring up on Hydra zombies/skeletons, though, is that the "regrow heads" ability is retained, since it's natural on hydras.  You can up your minion's danger level by spending some time each day cutting off heads and healing it back up.

[Endarire]

This thread needs a link in the OP to the handbook.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

K has a point of view.  The writing is good.
The general understanding of the rules,
is exactly what anybody could hope for.

He was paying attention to something that
hadn't had a really good hash-out.  Nailing
a few sacred cows helps get people off of
their lazy assumptions.  What he set in
motion, was to have a much larger group
of dedicated CO-ers really get down to business.

The collective's extra hashing outs, have led to
different results than what he got in relative isolation.

I mean, if you want the absolute best Necro-something,
there are plenty of things worked out since this guide.


Perhaps it's time for a Quickstart Necro-ey Guide ?
 

[Endarire]

Collection of Necromantic Oddities - There's so much in here (even in replies) that you should add it to the handbook!

[zook1shoe]

Have you checked out the Dragon 336 section on animating dead? There's some cool stuff there

[123456789blaaa]

Reposting my post from RoC forums:

In the online article Dead Life (
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) on the wizards website there is an item called the Shrouds of the Unholy. Here is it's description:

Shrouds of the Unholy: These shrouds, like shrouds of the holy, look like ordinary funerary wrappings for dead bodies and are often decorated with symbols and icons representing the dead rising. If a dead body is wrapped in the shroud, and the command word spoken, the body will return as undead. The type of undead it returns as is determined by the speaker of the command word. The undead creature is not under anyone's control when it rises. Wrapping a body takes 10 minutes. The magic of the shrouds is useable only once, after which the wrapping becomes ordinary, fine cloth.

Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead as appropriate; Market Price: 1,550 gp (animate dead), 12,250 gp (create undead), or 16,000 (create greater undead); Weight: 10 lbs.

This is a must-have item for any necromancer. Just off the top of my head: you now have a RAW legal way to get a Slaymate. Hello free metamagic on necromancy spells!   .

EDIT:

Have you checked out the Dragon 336 section on animating dead? There's some cool stuff there

Which article? I can't seem to find it.

[zook1shoe]

Its the first main article that talks about a dozen undead. Prob about page 30.

One of the things I remember offhand is, they give building requirements for a charnel hound! Which is unlisted elsewhere.

[123456789blaaa]

Its the first main article that talks about a dozen undead. Prob about page 30.

One of the things I remember offhand is, they give building requirements for a charnel hound! Which is unlisted elsewhere.

I saw that section. It mostly only talks about how the different undead in various books are created "natually" (i.e. ways you can't use). When it does give creation methods, it doesn't actually spell out the specifics. So it'll say something like "the ritual to create the undead requires x gp, the spell create greater undead, and 200 corpses". I'm not sure if a DM will allow you to create one if you only know the ingredients of the rituals.

Besides the item I pointed out in the post above yours can do all that and more  .

[Nunkuruji]

I'm wondering if this is achievable

Take your Uttercold Assault Necromancer with Retribution

Find a way to get the [cold] subtype on minions
Find a way to grant them the feat Final Strike

pop for more damage

[zook1shoe]

Oil of chained create dead, made by a master alchemist

[MirddinEmris]

I think that Master Specialist redeems a little "Undead Horde Master" concept for a wizard: +10 to saves and turn resistance to all undead allies in 60 feet when you cast necromancy spell and 3/day fast healing 10 for 5 rounds to them makes up good for not having rebuke undead (and at least it's a  more controllable ability than hoping that "DM will make an encounter with this cool undead i want to rebuke"). Combined with an Uttercold necromancer, you will boost survivability of your undead troops really high, and if your party consists of undead, they would totally love you

[snakeman830]

Hmm, gestalt Dread Necromancer/Wizard (Enhanced Undead Necromancer)/Master Specialist could be quite good.  Super beefy undead that are really tough to blast away in a single shot.

[Endarire]

May we get a link to the original post in the top post?

[Libertad]

May we get a link to the original post in the top post?

Done.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

What is your max rebuke build?

Clicky da linky in da siggy. Ctrl+F

[Garryl]

It's a minor thing, but under Necromancy on a Budget and The Importance of being Desecrated, it says:

Desecrate can also be used to cut off an area from sacred power (whether it is sacred to a good or evil god even, so the fact that Good clerics can’t normally cast this spell is one of the many reasons that in official D&D: Evil Wins), and even makes turning checks more difficult.

Consecrate can do the same thing about cutting off areas of sacred power (identical, copy-pasted wording), so this bit here is a misconception. Good clerics can do the exact same thing, it's not an "evil wins" thing.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I'd like to request the Positive Energy Levels language be adjusted. The reason they aren't a problem is because WotC removed any traces of easily creating them. But although they are powerful, they aren't broken even for living creatures.

There is no known way to break them by forcing them to stack. This is because they are most powerful when they are a bonii rather than a penalty and bonii do not stack with the same source, unlike penalties. So even if an undead came into contact with a method of positive energy levels, it would expect to not find multiple instances of that source. Energy Drain is far more dangerous/powerful than Energy Charge in this respect.

Obligatory Further reading