Yet another new DM... yeah we go through those pretty quick round here...

[Lunarambling]

Hey folks. So, I am about to make yet another new character, as we have lost yet another DM to the demands of adult life. Rent went up, more hours needed to be worked. Sucks but oh well.

So, here is what I have to go with. The group consists of 3 players; a Dragonfire Adept focused on BFC, a Daring Outlaw build, not overly optimized, and myself. I have no idea what to play, but I don't want to overshadow the other two. That is my main concern. As such things like Wiz/Druid/Cleric are pretty much out the window, cause I will outshine them pretty quickly.

The DM is carrying over some house rules from the previous campaign. Particularly, we do not earn XP. We earn character points. These character points can be used to buy off LA(generally 5-7 per LA depending on the template/bloodline), raise stats at character creation (up to 20 before adding in racial mods on a 1:1.), 2:1 for feats, or 10:1 for levels. We are starting level 6. My stats before adjustments are: 11, 17, 18, 11, 14, 10 (Rolled stats, not even rolled by me.)  I am thinking that I should try to stick with a class in the Tier 3-4 range. Was debating a Wildshape Ranger/MoMF, or maybe a Totemist or something like that?

Basically I am open to suggestions. I want to be useful, but not overshadow the group.

[Lunarambling]

Apologies, should have mentioned:

Sources: Pretty much anything 3.5, though if it is Dragon Mag or whatever, I need to be able to find it online to show the DM.

World: Homebrew world, free to mix the various Settings of DnD. I have most of the Eberron and FR stuff, some KoK, but I don't have, nor do I know where to find, Dark Sun or others.

[AyeGill]

What do you gain from buying off LA, under this system? Do you get more character points because your ECL is lower? Otherwise, what is the benefit to losing the LA?

[spacemonkey555]

I would guess they basically buy bloodlines and templates they can add to the character.

The sky is the limit when you can get a bloodline and unlimited feats... a warblade/factotum might be fun with 10 fonts of inspiration and factotum level 8. Mix melee, skills, and action abuse.

Edit: can only get up to int mod fonts of inspiration, but even 5x foi would add 15 inspiration points

[sirpercival]

The problem is the character concept is very vague.  There are so many options in the 3-4 range we need some guidance or you'll get a million wildly-varying suggestions.

Wildshape ranger/MoMF can be quite fun and effective.  Totemist is rarely taken all the way to 20, so you want a better-defined concept... I'll suggest a grappling build since totemists make such awesome grapplers (and because.... well... yeah).  Check the handbook in my sig.

Other possibilities would be to play a character who can make your other party members better, since that by definition won't overshadow the others.  A fun tier 3 version is a DFI Bardblade, or you can play a war weaver or a buffificer if you want to roll with higher tiers.

If you like the bardblade idea and you can get homebrew allowed, I'll also plug my Valorous Lieutenant prc (also in my sig).

[Lunarambling]

Hey guys. Thanks for the responses.

Sirpercival: I realize I gave kind of a vague concept, I am sorry, I am really sort of lost as to what to do here. I generally favor playing casters, and so I am really taking a step out of my comfort zone to try to play something different.

The Wildshape Ranger seems like it could be fun. Totemist, I am less clear on where to go. I have played a Totemist 1 time in a level 1-5 game where traditional magic was not allowed, and I had fun, but not sure how that would port of to this. Perhaps if I did go with the grapple-monster I could go Totemist X/Black blood cultist X/ ??? I am unfamiliar with the requirements of BBC so I will have to look into that.

If you wildshape, do you need natural spell if you have a Pearl of Speech and are in a form that has hands, like an ape? The thought just occured to me, and I have no idea if that works.

I am very unfamiliar with the Bardblade concept. I will look into that as well, and also talk to the DM about your PRC if I decided to go that route.

Ayegill: Buying templates/bloodlines is the a bit discounted versus loosing the actual LA. it is 10 points to go up a level or 5-7 per LA depending on what template/bloodline. This means for example that I might be able to pick up 2 +1 templates for as little as 10 points, or one level. Yeah, it isn't the most amazing benefit of this point by system, but it is kinda nifty.

Spacemonkey: I like the concept of a Factotum/Warblade, but again I am mainly concerned with overshadowing the other players, and am pretty sure that with that set up I would easily do that.

I am really leaning toward the MoMF build idea or the Bard at this point. Any suggestions either way?

Also, forgot, for 3 CP you can buy the an ability called Wealth, which gives you 10k gold in addition to your WBL. With a MoMF I am thinking that that may not be so huge a boon, but for a Bard that might be kinda useful.

[sirpercival]

Is Dragon Mag material allowed?  Because I have an idea...

[Lunarambling]

As long as I can show it to the DM, meaning if I can find it online, even if I have to torrent it, then yes, but in the past I have had a lot of trouble finding a torrent of the Dragon Mags, I do have the compendium.

[sirpercival]

OK then.  So here's my idea (a grappling build), which could go a couple of ways.  Either way you're a WS ranger.

Idea A: Spellcasting.  This build is very similar to one in my handbook.

Azurin Rogue 1/Mystic Wildshape Ranger 5/Totemist 2/Daggerspell Shaper 10/X 3

Mystic Ranger is a variant ranger from a Dragon mag (I don't remember which) that gets something much more similar to Bard casting progression than usual ranger.  You grab a couple fun daggers, wild shape into a Polar Bear and cast Animal Growth on yourself.  With Girallon Arms and Kraken Mantle you've got an awesome grapple check (I can do more of a work-up for you if you want, with feats and grapple check calculation).

Idea B: BBC

Skarn City Brawler Lion-totem Barbarian 1/Wildshape Ranger 5/Totemist 2/Black Blood Cultist 10/X 3

City Brawler is a barbarian ACF from Dragon mag (again, I don't recall which one exactly) that swaps out your armor proficiency for IUS and TWF with unarmed strikes.  That + ranger qualifies you for BBC, which once you hit level 8 will give you a huge number of natural attacks in a grapple.


Alternatively, the bardblade.  Basically you're a Bard/Warblade or Crusader, taking advantage of the Song of the White Raven feat to increase your Inspire Competence effectiveness with W or C levels.

[Lunarambling]

Those builds actually seem like they might be really fun. I am going to look more into the BBC, I am unfamiliar with it for the most part. Also, just spoke to the DM, and he will let me take the Mulhorandi Divine Minion template for  8 character points, which makes it slightly cheaper than just losing the level for it. So with that I could qualify for MoMF early right?

[sirpercival]

Yes, yes you could.  That changes things... you don't need WS ranger at all.

[Lunarambling]

So theoretically, I could be an 8th level MoMF with no other class levels...

[sirpercival]

Not exactly... you need a level of something so you can get the two feats.

[Lunarambling]

Well, we are able to take Flaws, so I suppose I could use those to get the feats yes? So, possibly something like this:

Human (Mulhorandi Divine Minion Nephthys)
Master of Many Forms 8
Flaw: Shaky
Flaw: Poor Reflexes

Feats
Human: Alertness
Flaw 1: Endurance
Flaw 2: ???
1st level: ???
3rd level: ???
6th level: ???

Stats would be something like:

Str   11
Dex  11
Con 17 -> bought to 18
Int   18-> 2 level boosts 20
Wis  14
Cha  10

I have no proficiency in any armor/weapons but I do have a decent skill list.

Or, I could go with something like this:

Martial Monk1/MoMF7

Flaw : Alertness
Flaw : Endurance
Human: Power Attack
M.Monk: Shock Trooper
1st, 3rd, 6th: ???

With this I could still do most of the wild shape shenanigans, but I would get the Charger goodness of Shock Trooper, plus I am sure I can benefit from the size increases and buff up the US of Monk. But then I may want to switch INT and WIS for better AC.

[AyeGill]

You're getting templates and bloodlines on the cheap?



When you say you start level 6, does that mean six levels, or 60 character points?

[Lunarambling]

6th level, with a pool of 29 character points to spend. On average the DM has said we will ear 3-5 points per session. My current plan is to go with this:

Mulhorandi Divine Minion Template: 8 CP
Boost Con by 1: 1CP
Level 7: 10 CP
Debating on buying another level, or a bunch of stats/feats. Thinking I should raise my Str by 3 to get Power Attack. Here is what I have so far.

Human (Mulhorandi Divine Minion-> Outsider Type which gives some nifty bonuses)
Flaw: Shaky -3? to ranged attacks
Flaw: Poor Reflexes -3 to Reflex Saves, figured Reflex tends not to be a huge deal, and if I am planning on dealing with traps or dodging AoE I can always shift into something Dex based for a big bump.

Stats: Str 10, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 20, Wis 16, Cha 10

Feats:
Flaw: Alertness
Flaw: Endurance
Human: Improved Unarmed Strike
1st Level: Improved Grapple
3rd Level: Multiattack
6th Level: Combat Expertise

Since I already have the prerequisites for Master of Many Forms before I ever take a class level, I should be able to just enter MoMF at Level 1. That means that I am a level 7 MoMF. Which gives me a ton of versatility. The downside to this entry is that I lose a ton of forms since I can't take Animals. However, having talked it over with the DM, this is how he is ruling my shifting:

I have WS as an 11th level Druid. Means I can shift into Medium and Small, and up to 11hd. The MoMF levels will stack onto that, allowing me currently 18hd forms, getting all of the various shapes that MoMF gives. Due to the Fast Wildshape ability of the template I can shift at will and as a free action into any of my forms. The only downside is that by using the Divine Minion template, I can only ever use animals that the template applies to. In my case Hawk, Constrictor Snake, and Crocodile. I have entered into an agreement that I will not use the boost in HD to overrun the campaign, so I am limiting myself somewhat.

Now, I have 10 CP left. I can either boost my stats, or buy feats, or just go up to 8th level. Or I could by a couple levels of Bloodlines or an additional template. I was considering Necropolitan for the nifty immunities, however, I need to check if that works on Outsiders. What exactly would this build gain from Bloodline progression? Just more HD of monsters?

If I go to 8th level, I am debating starting to dip Warshaper for the goodies it provides, but kind of want to finish out MoMF first. However, I have no idea where to take this build after that. I could go for a few levels of Black Blood Cultist, but that requires me to pick up Rage, which I could have done via Druidic Avenger, but I am using MDH to get WS, rather than Druid, so that doesn't work. Another option might be to pick up some ToB Class to finish things out, which I could do at 10 or 15 depending on if I grab Warshaper. Might be kinda fun to grab Swordsage, something like MoMF10/Swordsage10. Or I could go MoMF10/Druid or WS Ranger10, this should continue to progress my WS, so that I could have some ridiculous forms eventually. Dragon shape at Level 10 is already going to let me grab 21 HD, then if I continue to advance WS, it would get even better. Any other classes that advance WS?

Also any good Wild feats? With at will WS, I could always burn a WS to get the benefit right? Even if that doesn't work MoMF explicitly gives me a WS per level.

Also, these are the forms that I am currently going to be using:

MM3: Cave Troll, War Troll, Battlebriar,
MM4: Greathorn Minotaur
FF: Skulk, Ironmaw
SoX: Jungle Giant
MM: Cloaker, Constrictor, Crocodile, Hawk, Mimic, Will-o-Wisp

Not sure if I am missing any non-animal forms that would be good. I was hoping for a great troop carrying form to carry the party, but most of the big flyers that are good at this are animals. Was thinking that I could go with a Delver though, but was hoping to find a workable non-animal flyer. Any suggestions?

[Jackinthegreen]

Unless your DM will allow otherwise, by RAW feat selection comes after class choice for that level (page 58 of the PHB lists the order of what happens when gaining levels).  The best you could do is get into MOMF at 2nd level, which is still quite good.  Going with that Martial Monk build seems like a great choice at that point.

As for wild feats, here's a good list: http://dndtools.eu/feats/categories/wild/?page_size=50

[Lunarambling]

Hm. That sucks. Unless, I can convince the DM of the legality using the MM section on improving monsters. If I can get him to accept that, than I when I was a 1hd creature, I could have already had the appropriate pre-reqs, then traded my 1hd for a class level, which would let me start as an MoMF. But that might be a bit of a stretch rules wise.

[Jackinthegreen]

The issue with that is humans advance by character class.  By RAW, as a 0HD creature, they have to have a character class.  There's no such thing as a human with racial hit die, and even if there were it'd still count against ECL.  If the DM isn't counting RHD towards ECL, why are you using a human?

To give an example of a "monster," the listing for Dwarf has one with a level of Warrior.

[Lunarambling]

Right, because that 1 level of dwarf is replaced by their first class level. My 1 level of Human is replaced with my 1st class level, as described on page 290 of the Monster Manuel. The example that it uses is a goblin, whom like a Dwarf or Human is stated with 1 level of Warrior, giving up their 1 racial hit die to become a sorcerer, losing the benefits of the Monstrous Humanoid Hit Die, and gaining the benefits of their first level. So RAW, it appears that 1HD creatures do have the option of taking 1HD of their Type, or a class level. Like I said, it is a hard sell, and in the end I am not sure that it is worth it. I mean, I could grab the Martial Monk dip, or if I am intending to go Black Blood Cultist I could grap a level of Druidic Avenger, I think the ACF is, that give Rage to a Druid? That would actually keep my HD of monsters the same, though, I would need to spend my 10 remaining CP on buying another class level so that I can keep the Extraordinary Wild Shape Feature.