Author Topic: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs  (Read 25342 times)

Offline LargePrime

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2012, 01:57:45 PM »
again, I am swearing because people are dropping by thinking "Hey I got this!  If I just post THIS then the world will see how smart I am!".  All of these points have been discussed and refuted, ad nausium.

If you do not care to engage the arguments then fuck right off.  If you do not want to read to catch up on what has or has not been said then you can fuck right off!

Other than that, Game on!
Wizards and so forth don't lose it because they actually have arcane spellcasting as a class feature rather than yes, gaining it through a spell.
Again, this was refuted like 14 posts ago.  They cannot cast spells when they have no slots.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 02:06:10 PM by LargePrime »

Offline Wiggins

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2012, 02:55:40 PM »
Wizards and so forth don't lose it because they actually have arcane spellcasting as a class feature rather than yes, gaining it through a spell.
Again, this was refuted like 14 posts ago.  They cannot cast spells when they have no slots.

And, again, ad nausium, you're ignoring the existence of the Class Feature "Arcane Spellcasting".

But if there's a case to be made that that Class Feature doesn't do anything for PrC qualification, so what? It seems then that you should agree with our interpretation of Anyspell by the same merits of that part of your argument, that it only works to qualify once Anyspell has been used to prepare an Arcane spell that hasn't been cast?

Offline liquid150

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2012, 03:45:22 PM »
again, I am swearing because
...you don't have any idea how to disagree with somebody without it.

Again, stubborn, boob. Swearing doesn't make you cool, it just damages your argument and makes you look unintelligent. If you care to actually attempt to refute the cases made, do so, but don't just curse and stomp around claiming that nobody has refuted your statements. It has been done, and you have failed to respond in any way other than the above.

So, either make an argument, or just admit you lost.

Offline Soundwave

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2012, 03:49:39 PM »
Quote
"Once you choose and prepare an arcane spell, you retain it in your mind."
That, I argue, qualifies for the ability to contain.

I favor this interpretation.

Though I think the discussion itself leans more towards letter of the law rather then spirit.

Offline LargePrime

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2012, 03:51:04 PM »
Wizards and so forth don't lose it because they actually have arcane spellcasting as a class feature rather than yes, gaining it through a spell.
Again, this was refuted like 14 posts ago.  They cannot cast spells when they have no slots.

And, again, ad nausium, you're ignoring the existence of the Class Feature "Arcane Spellcasting".

But if there's a case to be made that that Class Feature doesn't do anything for PrC qualification, so what? It seems then that you should agree with our interpretation of Anyspell by the same merits of that part of your argument, that it only works to qualify once Anyspell has been used to prepare an Arcane spell that hasn't been cast?
Again, you are not engaging the arguments that have already been made.
If you wont engage them why should anyone engage your arguments?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 03:52:57 PM by LargePrime »

Offline LargePrime

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2012, 03:52:26 PM »
again, I am swearing because
...you don't have any idea how to disagree with somebody without it.
No fucktard, there are several posts in this very thread that prove you wrong, but you cannot read anything that is not already in your small mind.

Offline Wiggins

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2012, 04:55:17 PM »
Wizards and so forth don't lose it because they actually have arcane spellcasting as a class feature rather than yes, gaining it through a spell.
Again, this was refuted like 14 posts ago.  They cannot cast spells when they have no slots.

And, again, ad nausium, you're ignoring the existence of the Class Feature "Arcane Spellcasting".

But if there's a case to be made that that Class Feature doesn't do anything for PrC qualification, so what? It seems then that you should agree with our interpretation of Anyspell by the same merits of that part of your argument, that it only works to qualify once Anyspell has been used to prepare an Arcane spell that hasn't been cast?
Again, you are not engaging the arguments that have already been made.
If you wont engage them why should anyone engage your arguments?



Um, that WAS me engaging with your argument

Offline liquid150

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2012, 05:29:17 PM »
again, I am swearing because
...you don't have any idea how to disagree with somebody without it.
No fucktard, there are several posts in this very thread that prove you wrong, but you cannot read anything that is not already in your small mind.
No, there aren't any, fuckwit. Again, you aren't offering anything to refute anything except false claims. Just walk away. You lose.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 05:31:18 PM by liquid150 »

Offline Halinn

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2012, 07:29:53 PM »
again, I am swearing because
...you don't have any idea how to disagree with somebody without it.
No fucktard, there are several posts in this very thread that prove you wrong, but you cannot read anything that is not already in your small mind.
No, there aren't any, fuckwit. Again, you aren't offering anything to refute anything except false claims. Just walk away. You lose.
"You aren't saying the same as me. You're wrong."

Offline Wiggins

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2012, 07:49:24 PM »
Halinn, I think that applies more to what LargePrime's saying to what Liquid150 is.

Offline Halinn

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #50 on: January 21, 2012, 08:44:51 PM »
It goes for everyone who said anything along those lines.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #51 on: January 21, 2012, 09:00:28 PM »
It goes for everyone who said anything along those lines.
As shocking as it is for this to come from me, Liquid has actually been relatively decent on this one.  LargePrime just refuses to argue the debate, he just goes "nuh UH" and swears a lot.

Offline Kajhera

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #52 on: January 21, 2012, 09:05:15 PM »
again, I am swearing because people are dropping by thinking "Hey I got this!  If I just post THIS then the world will see how smart I am!".  All of these points have been discussed and refuted, ad nausium.

If you do not care to engage the arguments then fuck right off.  If you do not want to read to catch up on what has or has not been said then you can fuck right off!

Other than that, Game on!
Wizards and so forth don't lose it because they actually have arcane spellcasting as a class feature rather than yes, gaining it through a spell.
Again, this was refuted like 14 posts ago.  They cannot cast spells when they have no slots.
Ah, so stating which side's arguments I found more compelling is not a valid input.
I read every post and came to the conclusions I did. I don't precisely feel obligated to write a 5-page persuasive essay to try and bring you around to my point of view, but I figured I'd share them anyway.

Offline skydragonknight

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #53 on: January 21, 2012, 09:36:15 PM »
Having a Ring of Evasion in a HHH is different than having one in the palm of your hand is different than having on on your finger.

Having a Chameleon bonus feat is not the same as having Iron Will for entering Ur Priest. If the feat isn't Iron Will, you don't qualify.

I see two feasible scenarios: 1. Anyspell is prepared, but not cast. 2. Anyspell is cast, but the arcane spell is not. If Anyspell's arcane spell is cast, it's the same as the bonus feat changing or the ring of evasion coming off your finger: you no longer qualify. Number 2 would absolutely qualify you. Number 1 only might.

And yes, this is a RAW argument, since I doubt any of this was intended by the authors to begin with. And once in RAW land, we need to stay in RAW land. Yes, RAI may be that a Wizard out of spell slots would still qualify for his PrC, but this isn't an RAI argument. RAI is highly subject to opinion, especially DM opinion. When trying to cleverly qualify for something, it's strictly better to stick to RAW and rules lawyer it out without relying on what was or wasn't intended. This is basic CO we're talking about here. Sheesh.
Hmm.

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #54 on: January 21, 2012, 09:39:33 PM »
An argument without me! Man I thought this would resolve in a week. Why is it still going on?

Anyspell cannot be used to meet arcane based PrC requirements, also when you get down to it items are not intended to meet PrC requirements either.

There done, and I've provided just as many rule quotes as half the people here ^_^

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #55 on: January 21, 2012, 09:45:19 PM »
Anyspell cannot be used to meet arcane based PrC requirements, also when you get down to it items are not intended to meet PrC requirements either.

I agree about the items, but why can't Anyspell be used (in any situation) according to you?
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Offline X-Codes

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #56 on: January 21, 2012, 09:47:03 PM »
Anyspell cannot be used to meet arcane based PrC requirements, also when you get down to it items are not intended to meet PrC requirements either.
I would agree that this is absolutely the intent on both counts, but I think the RAW has similar quirks on both counts.  Since you cast a spell prepared through Anyspell "as a Wizard," then while that spell is prepared you are able to cast Arcane spells.

Offline skydragonknight

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2012, 09:49:22 PM »
Items are a little funny though...can't you use maneuver-granting items to help qualify you for maneuvers?
Hmm.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #58 on: January 21, 2012, 10:24:14 PM »
LargePrime, I did in fact read the thread.  And while I agree with some of your points, I do not agree with all of them - which is why I responded to this thread in the first place.  I did not "misquote" you, I included the entire post I was responding to, including the context.  Earlier in the thread, you claim to believe that you assume Wizards do NOT lose access to PrCs when they run out of spells cast.  But in the post I quoted, it sure looks to me like you must have changed your mind.  So which is it? 

Liquid, I agree with you for the most part, but take contention with what you say here
1. The quality of being able to do something, especially the physical, mental, financial, or legal power to accomplish something.
The wizard inherently has the physical and mental quality of being able to cast spells, always. Number of spells per day is none of the physical, mental, legal, or financial power to accomplish casting spells, it is an abstract game rule dis-joined from the above. The cleric with Anyspell only gains the physical and mental power to accomplish casting arcane spells by first taking an action which grants the quality itself. If Anyspell is not currently active, the cleric has neither and thus does not qualify.
The fluff is pretty clear (and I know I'm on really shaky ground arguing 'fluff' in a Rules debate) that a prepared spellcaster no longer has the mental capacity to cast spells after he runs out of his daily allotment.  I would absolutely agree that a Wizard inherently has the skill or talent (ability; definition 2) to cast arcane spells.  But that's what makes the 2 definitions distinct from each other - A wizard temporarily loses the Definition 1 'ability' to cast arcane spells for the time that he's out of spell slots.  But he never loses the Definition 2 'ability' barring extreme circumstances (like Disjoining an artifact or something).

The way I read it, the first definition of 'ability; means "can you do this RIGHT THE FUCK NOW"
The second definition means "can you do this, in general"
For the purposes of meeting prerequisites (and I'll be the first to admit I have no RAW proof for what I'm about to say), 'ability' usually is asking for "ability, in the general sense".  For this reason, I do not think things like Rings of Evasion to count as having Evasion for the purposes of meeting prerequisites should be legal, but I do allow a Wizard who is out of spells for the day to continue advancing in a PrC.  As far as Anyspell goes, I would say that being able to cast Anyspell means that the character inherently has the "skill or talent" to cast arcane spells (as per the description of Anyspell), and would ALWAYS qualify for Dweomerkeeper regardless of whether Anyspell or the arcane spell it was used to prepare has been cast today. 
This interpretation seems to me to keep the spirit of RAI, and can be argued to be RAW too depending on which definition of 'ability' the designers were using. 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline liquid150

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Re: Anyspell and qualifying for PrCs
« Reply #59 on: January 21, 2012, 10:28:35 PM »
It goes for everyone who said anything along those lines.
I was going for irony on that post. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Liquid, I agree with you for the most part, but take contention with what you say here
Then we will have to agree to disagree, in that case.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2012, 10:31:09 PM by liquid150 »