Star Wars Saga Edition, a thread for all fans of this system.

[Shadowhunter]

What is SWSE?

SWSE is the successor to the Star Wars RPG and hit the market in 2007. Books where produced to 2010 when WotC decided the license was too expensive (or at least that's how I understand it). This means that there are only 11 sourcebooks to the system, making it easier to get into from an optimizer standpoint than D&D 3.5 whilst still having enough options to give you a good solution for most character concepts. SWSE is system-wise a mixture of D&D 3.5 and 4e as well as the old SW rpg, combining many of the best things from both.
It is in my opinion one of the best systems WotC have created, albeit the reason why I believe so is because it's overall more balanced than 3.5 and a lot more creative then 4e, the only two other rpg products I am familiar with.

On what have come before:

There have been SWSE threads back at Gleemax as well as our old hang-around brilliantgameologists.com which have a lot of nice information. Emy made a general SWSE thread back at our old forum and I will credit him as well as Toptomcat for the X to Y table there.

This is not a handbook, this is just an introductory post so that we have somewhere to discuss this system for build options, ideas and concepts.

The X stat to Y Bonus, ported over from the old board. Thank you very much Emy, I hope you don't mind me reposting it before it gets lost.



Strength:

Code: [Select]

Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
Hammerblow{Brawler}               Soldier            Legacy Era CG pg31     Double Strength bonus to unarmed attack rolls when holding nothing in either hand
Heavy-Duty Actuators             5th-D. Droid        SGtD pg27              Double Strength bonus to unarmed and melee damage rolls.
 FORCE TALENTS
High Impact{Believer Disciple}    The Believers      Clone Wars pg56        Double Strength bonus to any melee damage with a swift action and a DC 15 UTF check
 FEATS
Echani Training                                      KotOR CG pg33          Double Strength bonus to unarmed attack damage when making no more than one unarmed attack per round
Mighty Throw                                         Force Unleashed pg33   Str to attack with thrown weapons and increase to range catergories equal to Str mod
Resilient Strength                                   Galaxy at War pg25     Replaces Con to Fort defense
Slammer                              Droid           SGtD pg27              Make unarmed attack as standard action, double Strength bonus to damage.
 OTHER
Dexterity:

Code: [Select]

Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
Ataru{Lightsaber Forms}           Jedi K./Sith A.    Core pg218/TttG pg81   Replaces Str to damage with lightsabers
Master of Elegance{Melee Duelist} Melee Duelist      KotOR CG pg47          Dex to damage instead of Str, but for other melee weapons.
 FORCE TALENTS
 FEATS
Weapon Finesse                                       Core pg89              Replaces Str to hit with light melee weapons and lightsabers
 OTHER
Constitution:

Code: [Select]

Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
 FORCE TALENTS
 FEATS
 OTHER
Intelligence:

Code: [Select]

Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
Droid Defense                    Droid Commander     Clone Wars Cg pg47    Add Int mod to allied droids defense of choice for 1 round.
 FORCE TALENTS
 FEATS
Brilliant Defense                                    Galaxy of Intrigue pg25    1/Encounter add to Reflex Defense as reaction for 1 round.
Predictive Defense                                   Galaxy at War pg25     Replaces Dex to Ref defense
 OTHER
Wisdom:

Code: [Select]

Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
 FORCE TALENTS
 FEATS
Jedi Heritage                      Twi'lek        Rebellion Era CG pg34     Wisdom counts as 4 higher for determine how many Force Powers you gain from Force Training.
 OTHER
Charisma:

Code: [Select]

Feat or Talent{Tree}              Class/tradition    Source                 Bonus
 CLASS TALENTS
Force Intuition{Jedi Guardian}    Jedi               Core pg40              Replace Initiative checks with Use the Force checks
Force Persuasion{Jedi Consular}   Jedi               Core pg40              Replace Persuasion checks with Use the Force checks
Idealist{Ideologue}               Noble              Force Unleashed pg25   Replaces Wis to Will defense
Noble Fencing Style{Fencing}      Noble              KotOR CG pg27          Replaces Str to hit with a light melee weapon or lightsaber
 FORCE TALENTS
Fluidity{Shapers of Kro Var}      Shaper of Kro Var  Jedi Academy pg85      Replace Acrobatics checks with Use the Force checks
Force Pilot{Sense}                                   Core pg101             Replace Pilot checks with Use the Force checks
Force Perception{Sense}                              Core pg101             Replace Perception checks with Use the Force checks
Waveform                          Order of Shasa     KotOR CG pg61          Additional damage on [telekinetic] powers
White Current Adept{White Current Adept} Fallanassi  Jedi Academy pg77      Replace Stealth checks with Use the Force checks
 FEATS
Force of Personality                                 Galaxy at War pg23     Replaces Wis to Will defense
Indomitable  Personality                          Galaxy of Intrigue pg23     1/Ecounter ad to Will Defense as reaction for 1 round.

 OTHER
Enlighten (Force power)                              Legacy Era CG pg54     Replace many things with a UtF check result. See section 2
Target Sense (Maneuver)                              SotG pg30              Replace vehicle's Int to attack with your Cha

On the (Ab)Use of Threshold:

Unlike D&D 3.5, where you're at prime fighting spirit even after taking those 30+ d6 in damage, as long as you have at least 1 HP left, the same cannot be said about Star Wars.

In SWSE, when you take damage that exceds your Threshold value, you go down one step on your Condition Track.
Just like in World of Darkness, Burning Wheel or any other rpg with similar mechanics, the more damaged you are, the harder it becomes for you to do things. A quick look in the core book let us familiarize with the mechanic.

At first glance, it seems a reasonable rule, since, after all, it's kind of hard to remain fighting whilst trying to balance on your guts when that Dire Vibroaxe cut you open.

However, as many enlightened induviduals have stated before me, there are some issues with this system.

At one end, we have the Greater Krayt Dragon.
It slaps you with its tail for an average of 51 damage. That's about a third or a fourth of a normal characters HP, correct me if I'm wrong.
But you still only go down 1 step on the Condition Track.

A little odd, don't you think?
But ok, it's good thing for the players, so hey let's not complain.

On the other end, we have builds that can stack abilities that push opponents down the condition track, so even if you hit something for 30-ish damage you can get them virtually useless.

Condition Track stacking-list. Work-in-progress, by all means if you find something then tell me
1. Doing damage over targets threshold, Core Rulebook.
2. Dastardly Strike, attack against opponent denied Dex to Reflex Defense cause -1 step, Scoundrel Talent, Core Rulebook.
3. Hunter's Mark, cause -1 step if at first you aim, hit and damage someone with a ranged attack, Bounty Hunter Talent, Core Rulebook.
4. Debilitating Shot, cause -1 step if at first you aim, hit and damage someone with a ranged attack, Gunslinger Talent, Core Rulebook.
5. Stun damage will cause another -1 step if it beats the targets threshold. Note that most stun weapons have an effective range of 6 squares.
6. Stunning Strike will cause another -1 step if it beats the targets threshold, melee attack only, Soldier Talent, Core Rulebook.
7. Inspire Zeal, if an attack by an ally cause the target to drop at least 1 step on the condition track, it drops another step, Noble Talent, Core Rulebook.
8. Pinpoint Accuracy, works like Hunter's Mark but for Droids, Feat, Scavenger's Guide to Droids.
9. Rancor Grab, -1 step when you use Pin and Crush when grappling, Feat (page 36) Legacy Era.
10. Bone Crusher, -1 step when damaging an opponent you grapple, Feat (page 25) Galaxy of Intrigue.
Original Builds and ideas:

On the usefulness of aiming.

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What is this?
It's a single-target ranged lockdown build. It limits your target to such few actions eventually that they might as well huddle up and die, because they're not going to contribute in this battle as long as you can hit them.

What is it not?
This is not a character that can put the hurt on many opponents at once. Leave that to the AoE or full attack party members.

What is it good against?
Anything that can be stunned.

What is it bad against?
Anything that can't be stunned.

What do you need?
Core Rulebook.
Galaxy at War.
The Unknown Regions.
Scum and Villainy.
Maybe Starships of the Galaxy.
Maybe Clone Wars Campaign Guide.

So, your basic build will be largely dependent on picking the Gunslinger prestige class. You can actually graft this onto any combination of base classes that won't be needing any Talents later on in the game, so it doesn't constrict you as much as some other builds. That said, Gunslinger do require a bunch of feats, but feats are less valuable than Talents in SWSE.
So take any combination of classes you like, but try to have as high of a BAB as possible.
You won't have to have any talents to qualify for this trick (though a level 1 dip into Scoundrel really won't hurt. More on that later).
Neither do you really have to be any race. But I'd advice against anything with a Dex-penalty, since that eats into your accuracy.
Make sure that you have weapon proficiency (pistols), you'll have it from the start unless the only class you have picked is Jedi.

You're going to be using some feats and some talents, let's have a look at them, shall we?

Feats:

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QUICK DRAW
You can draw and holster weapons with startling quickness.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus + 1.
Benefit: You can draw or holster a weapon as a swift action instead of as a move action.

Prerequisite for Gunslinger. Also thematically cool.

POINT BLANK SHOT
You are skilled at making well-placed shots with ranged weapons at point
blank range.
Benefit: You get a + 1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons against opponents within point blank range (see Table 8-5: Weapon
Ranges, page 129).

Prerequisite for Gunslinger and Deadeye. It's a staple of ranged builds, what can I say?
Scoundrels get it for free.

PRECISE SHOT
You are skilled at timing your ranged attacks so that you don't hit your
allies by mistake.
Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can shoot or throw a ranged weapon at an opponent engaged in melee combat with one or more of your allies without tak ing the
standard -5 penalty (see Shooting or Throwing into a Melee, page 161).

Another prereq. for both Gunslinger and Deadeye. Now your opponent won't be able to hide from your calculating wrath even if he does rush your tanking buddy. Too bad for him. Rolls Eyes

DEADEYE
You are skilled at picking off enemies with well-aimed ranged attacks.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: If you aim before making a ranged attack (see Aim, page 154) and the attack hits, increase the damage you deal by an additional weapon
die. For example, if you score a hit with a blaster pistol using the Deadeye feat, the blaster shot deals 4d6 points of damage (instead of the normal 3d6 points).
The effects of this feat do not stack with the extra damage provided by the Burst Fire or Rapid Shot feat.

The original reason why I started looking at ways to improve aiming. You'll take this. No ifs, no buts.

CAREFUL SHOT
You are particularly skilled at aiming your attacks.
Prerequisites: Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +2.
Benefit: If you aim before making a ranged attack (see Aim on page 154), you gain a + 1 bonus on your attack roll.

Accuracy is good.

Talents:

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Now, there's two talent trees you will be using. The Gunslinger and the Sharpshooter ones.

Gunslinger Talent Tree -
Core:
Debilitating Shot: If you aim before making a ranged attack (see Aim, page 154), you move the target character -1 step along the condition track if the attack deals damage (see Conditions, page 148).

Staple. Really good. Stupidly good. Use it.

The Unknown Regions.
Slowing Shot: If you successfully use Debilitating Shot, until the target moves to the normal state on the condition track or until the end of the encounter, the target's speed is reduced by 2 squares, and it loses its Dexterity bonus to its Reflex Defense and is considered flat-footed. These effects occur in addition to the effect of Debilitating Shot (see page 216 of the Saga Edition core rulebook). If you spend a Force Point, the target's speed is reduced by 4 squares or half of its normal speed, whichever is the greater reduction.
Prerequisite: Debilitating Shot.

Not a bad de-buff. Stacking it with the later ones will cause major shenanigans.


Sharpshooter Talent Tree (found in Galaxy of War)-

Precision Shot: When using the aim action, you gain the benefit of the Point Blank Shot feat against your target, regardless or range category.
Prerequisite: Far Shot feat.

Ok, it's not that overwhelming, but it's a prerequisite for the later ones and it does make the feat better. Every piece of accuracy helps. Remember, it's more important that you hit than that you deal significant damage. Accuracy -> Damage in this build.


Pinning Shot: You can keep your target worrying about where the next shot is coming from instead of trying to flee. When you deal damage to an enemy you have aimed at, the target's speed is reduced to 2 squares, and the target cannot take either a double move action or use the run action until the end of your next turn. This is a stunning effect.
Perquisite: Precision Shot.

Now we're talking. Note the wording on Slowing Shot and Pinning Shot.
Slowing reduce by 2 squares.
Pinning reduce to 2 squares.
SWSE have no rule on what effect activates first.
Now the opponent have a mighty speed of 0 squares. Even if you don't have Slowing Shot (which is only good if you can capitalize on the target being flat-footed and loosing Dex), all he can do is to move 2 squares. He can't move twice or run. He's not going anywhere.

Harrying Shot: When you make a successful ranged attack against an enemy that you have aimed at and the attack deals damage, the target cannot use a standard action to make an attack roll on his or her next turn. This counts as a stunning effect.
Prerequisite: Pinning Shot, Precision Shot.

Ok. So, he can't move properly. He can't attack normally either. I don't know the technicalities of whether or he can still full attack though, so I give no guarantees on that part.

1 level in Scoundrel is a good investment. It will give you Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat and let you pick up Dastardly Strike.
To activate it easily on your own, here's a good feat from Galaxy at War.
Steadying Position.
Prerequisite: Careful Shot.
Benefit: When you are prone and aim before making a ranged attack, your target does not benefit from its Dexterity bonus to Reflex Defense.

Proper gear for the job:

(click to show/hide)

Get yourself a modified rifle of some sort. Remember that no part of your build hinges on you using a pistol, the talents and feats are all compatible with other weapons. Avoid the Blaster Rifle, Sniper from Scum and Villainy. It's inferior to the BlastTech DLT-20A from the Clone Wars Campaign setting.
Same damage, no need for a tripod, no accuracy loss if you don't aim (not that you should ever not aim, but you might lack actions for some reason), cheaper, option for autofire and, most importantly, not guaranteed to only have a magazine size of 10 shots.
The Sniper Rifle have only 10 shots before you need to reload, the DLT lacks that information. Since the standard seems to be 50 shots for such a rifle, I assume that's the magazine size. Even if it's only 10 according to your GM, it's cheaper and better.

Note that you can use a pistol if you like. There's no stopping you. But I do like my base 31d0 rifles into 4d10 with Deadeye Big Grin

Double Trigger is a weapon mod from Scum and Villainy.
You get another +1 to hit if you use Careful Shot.

Tech Specialist is from Starships of the Galaxy and the upgraded version is in Scum and Villainy.
You don't have to be the specialist yourself if you can find someone for you to do it.
This equates into either a +1 or +2 equipment bonus to accuracy.

"You're just asking for the clamps!"

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What is this?

It is this guy:

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This is Clamps. Clamps is a 5-th degree labor droid using the rules in Scavengers Guide to Droids that streamlines different types of droids into pseudo-races. Labor droids gain +2 Str and -2 Int.
Clamps is a grappler, a one-target dangerous maniac son of a clamp.

What is it not?
This is once again not crowd killer.

What can it do?
Grapple many opponents into swift death.

What can't it do?
Expect to be able to grapple big hunking monsters as good as he can grapple medium sized opponents.
You start with 17 or 18 in starting Str, depending on your preference, Labor droid kicks this up to Str 19/20. End result is Str 24.
You need some feats, these are the ones you're looking at:

PIN
You are skilled at immobilizing grappled foes.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus + 1.
Benefit: If you succeed on a grappling attack and your opponent fails the opposed grapple check, your opponent is automatically pinned until the start of your next turn. A pinned creature can't move or take any actions while pinned, and it loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Reflex Defense.
Special: You cannot use the Pin and Trip feats during the same round. You can use the Pin and Crush feat in the same round, however.


CRUSH
You can deal damage to a creature that you've grappled.
Prerequisites: Pin, base attack bonus + 1.
Benefit: If you successfully pin an opponent with a grapple attack (see the Pin feat, page 87), you can immediately deal bludgeoning damage to it equal to your unarmed damage or claw damage, whichever is greater.

BONE CRUSHER
You are skilled at dealing lasting damage to grappled opponents.
Prerequisites: Crush, Pin.
Benefit: When you deal damage to a grappled opponent, the opponent also moves -1 step on the condition track.

Rancor Crush
You crushing hold on an  enemy can knock it unconscious.
Prerequisites: Strength 15, Crush, Pin, baste attack bonus +1
Benefit: When you successfully pin an enemy with the Pin feat (see page 87 of the Saga Edition core rolebook) and use the Crush feat at the same time, the enemy moves -1 step down the condition track in addition to taking damage.


Pincer
You use your mechanical strength to restrain and damage enemies.
Prerequisites: Droid, equipped with claw or hand appendage, base attack bonus + 1, Pin, Crush.
Benefit: When you successfully Pin an enemy (see page 87 of the Saga Edition core rulebookJ. you can maintain the Pin beyond 1 round and
can make subsequent grapple checks against the pinned enemy as a swift action. You can apply the Crush feat whenever your subsequent checks are successful.
Normal: Grapple checks are normally a standard action. The Pin feat must usually be rerolled each round as a new grapple check.


Now, for those paying close attention the scary is evident, but I will point it out step by step here.
You can grapple as a Standard action. Once you hit, you can use Pin as a free action.
Rancor Crush activates, target moves -1 step on the Condition Track, regardless if the damage exceed DT or even DR.
You deal normal damage, which could potentially move them another step on the condition track if it is bad enough.
As long as you deal damage (pierce the very rare Damage Reduction), Bone Crusher kicks in. Another -1 step on the condition track.
The opponent is now at -2, maybe -3.

You can now re-grapple as a swift action. Rancor Crush won't activate, because you need to use Pin and to use Pin you need to be making a grapple Attack, not a grapple Check. Note the difference. Crusher and Bone Crusher will, however.
Now the target is at -3, maybe -4.
Note as you move down on the Condition Track, your Damage Threshold lowers. DT is equal to Fort Defense + Armor Bonus after all.

At -3 on the Condition Track, his DT is at a -5 penalty. Another swift action will deal more damage, have the best chance to get over the DT and Bone Crusher will activate once more.
There's a fair chance you can get the opponent unconscious (if not dead) in one round.

There's a Soldier talent in the Core Rulebook that gives a +2 Competence bonus to Grapple checks, take it. You can also target "Grapple" when picking "Weapon Focus". Do that.

"I might be fresh of the production line, but you're dead!".

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What is this and what can it do?
This is a level 4 close combat monstrosity. It can scale as the levels go on, but the immediate impact it has on the game could be very substantial.

What do you need?
Look at the X stat to Y for Strength.
Labor Droid, Scavengers Guide to Droids.
Heavy-Duty Acutators, Hammerblow, Echani Training, Slammer.

(5th Degree) Labor Droid Scout 2/Soldier 2 (fill up with Elite Trooper for the Teräs Käsi talent tree and Soldier for more Brawler tree, and 1 more in Scout for Evasion)
Assuming 28 pts buy which is the standard for Dawn of Defiance, instead of the Core book and it's 25 pts, modified for droids into a 24 pts buy.
Strength:19+1
Dexterity:13+1
Constitution:-
Intelligence:10
Wisdom:10
Charisma:8

1 Scout:[Fifth Degree Droid Tree - Heavy-Duty Actuators], WP (Pistols, rifles, simple weapons), Martial Arts I
2 Scout: Slammer
3 Soldier:[Brawler Tree - Hammerblow], AP (light), Echani Training
4 Soldier: Martial Arts II

At 4th level, your Str mod is +5.
Your attack bonus is BAB 3+(2xStr +5(=10))= 13

Your damage on your 1 attack is 1d8+(Str +5x2x2x2)+2= 1d8+40+2.
Let me state that again:

You are a level 4 character and punch someone for an average of 46.5 damage.
A CL 11 Rancor has 2 claw attacks, each dealing 1d8+20 at an attack bonus of +11.
You are more accurate than the Rancor and deal more damage with a single attack.
The Rancor still beats your DPR if it hits with both claw attacks. With an average of 49 damage.
As a CL 11 creature.
You're level 4.

FAAAAAAAALCOOOON PUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUNNNCHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO0JYvyd75w

There's many more good things floating around the web that I hope eventually will gather here, I hope this will be the go-to thread for SWSE on these boards. Anything SWSE related, don't hesitate to post, I'll try to help if I have any ideas and I'm sure I'm not the only SWSE player on these boards (I know at least a handful since I'm in a PbP playing it here).

Sourcebooks (copied from Wikipedia):

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    Star Wars Roleplaying Game: Saga Edition (ISBN 978-0-7869-4356-2)
    Starships of the Galaxy (Saga Edition) (ISBN 978-0-7869-4823-9)
    Threats of the Galaxy (ISBN 978-0-7869-4781-2)
    Galaxy Tiles (ISBN 978-0-7869-4744-7)
    Star Wars Gamemaster Screen (ISBN 978-0-7869-4936-6)
    Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide (ISBN 978-0-7869-4923-6)
    The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide (ISBN 978-0-7869-4743-0)
    Scum and Villainy (ISBN 978-0-7869-5035-5)
    The Clone Wars Campaign Guide (ISBN 978-0-7869-4999-1)
    Legacy Era Campaign Guide (ISBN 978-0-7869-5051-5)
    Jedi Academy Training Manual (ISBN 978-0-7869-5183-3)
    Rebellion Era Campaign Guide (ISBN 978-0-7869-4983-0)
    Galaxy At War (ISBN 978-0-7869-5221-2)
    Scavenger's Guide to Droids (ISBN 978-0-7869-5230-4)
    Galaxy of Intrigue (ISBN 978-0-7869-5400-1)
    The Unknown Regions (ISBN 978-0-7869-5399-8)

[GawainBS]

If this belongs in its own thread, let me know.

Through out the Clone Wars book, there's references to (ARC) Clone Trooper Armour, yet the equipment section doesn't mention it. I've always used Stormtrooper armour for this. Does it have actual stats? Where could I find them?

Also, is there a better (regarding both REF & FORT defenses) armour than Stormtrooper Armour, if you'd only spend two talents (Armoured & Improved Armoured Defense)? The YV Shell armour is good, but it's YV, so that's out. If you know of a great, great very great medium or heavy armour (and thus incur a bigger ACP and require Juggernaut for the speed), feel free to mention them. But as stated, the difference should be very big.

Thanks in advance!

[Shadowhunter]

As to your first question, I do not know.

As to the second one, it depends if you have the Dex mod to really take advantage of the Max Dex +3 of the stormtrooper armor.
If you do, I haven't found anyone that is better in regards to effective Reflex defense. They all add up to a +5 bonus whilst the Stormtroooper armor adds up to +6.
If you don't, then one of the better ones is the medium armor in Galaxy at war, the medium armor Katarn-class comando armor.
+9 to ref, +4 to fort, +1 max dex. Adds up to +5 to Reflex and +4 to Fortitude and a bonus to allow Treat Injury on yourself without penalty. However it does cost 30,000 credits. I don't think that qualifies as big enough of a difference to be worth it.

To be honest, I've been through all the books and I think you've already found the best option if not going for Vong biotech.

[GawainBS]

Thanks. My question was indeed with the maximum DEX of 20 in mind. (Barring species bonus.) I was trying to come up with an armour wearing Jedi, but I didn't want to invest too much in armourtalents. The only others I found that come close are Light Jedi Armour & Mandalorian Combat Suit.
Nice find in the Katarn-class armour.

[GawainBS]

Ok, as posted above, trying to make an armoured Jedi. (All books allowed.)

Human, STR 8, DEX 15 (20), CON 12, INT 10, WIS 13 (16), CHA 14 (16)

Lvl   Class   
1   Jed 1   Force Perception Weapon Finesse, Skill Focus (Use The Force), Force Sensitive, Simple Weapons, Lightsabre Proficiency

2   Jed 2   Force Training

3   Jed 3   Deflect Improved Defenses

4   Jed 4   Force Training

5   Jed 5   Block

6   Sct 1    Evasion Weapon Proficiency: Blaster Pistol; Skill Training: Initiative

7   Sol 1    Armoured Defense Armour Proficiency: Light

8   Sol 2            Double Attack (Lightsabre)

9   JKn 1   Ataru Weapon Focus: Lightsabre

10   JKn 2   

11   JKn 3   Improved Armoured Defense

12   JKn 4   Improved Damage Treshold

13   JKn 5   Shii-Cho

14   JKn 6   

15   Sol 3           Penetrating Strike (The one that lower enemy Dmg TH with 5) Force Training

16   Jma 1   Multiattack (Lightsabre)

17   Jma 2   

18   Jma 3   Multiattack (Lightsabre) Republic Training (Armour Fort bonus to Will)

19   Jma 4   

20   Jma 5   Weapon Specialisation

I'm considering taking only 4 lvls of Jedi Master, and one more level of Jedi to get a bonus feat, Power Attack. Given that to hit is so hard to come by in SWSE, I'm reluctant, however.

Force Powers:
Battlestrike
Battlestrike
Battlestrike
Force Slam
Force Slam
Force Slam
Force Stun
Negate Energy
Negate Energy
Surge
Surge
Vital Transfer

Equipment: Lightsabre (with +2 to hit from Superior Tech Spec) & Stormtrooper Armour (+2 Fort Def from Sup Tech Spec).

The goal is a survivable character, with some BFC & very decent damage potential.

What do you think? Did I miss anything?

[Shadowhunter]

My first suggestion would be to have your first level in Scout.
You're probably going to want a level of it for Survivor Tree - Evasion, since that means you take no damage from auto fire attacks you manage to deflect or attacks that miss you.
Taking it at level 1 nets you the most because you gain more skills trained so I would consider it.
It would force you to pick up Force Sensitivity at 1st level and the lightsaber prof. with the first level of Jedi.

So for you, something like Scout 1/Soldier 2/Jedi 5/Jedi Knight 9/Jedi Master 3.

I would ignore Power Attack, not to mention that you have STR 8 and you need 13.

Personally I don't make Jedi's without both Shii-Cho and Soresu, but I've always been more interested in surviving than killing quicker.

A general tip for most force users are the Cloak (Invisibility), Levitate and Phase (walk through walls) powers from Clone Wars. It makes it a lot easier to get into or out of places. Since they're both maintainable you only need 1 of each.

Also Drain Energy from Jedi Academy Training Manual. DC 20 UTF to completely drain the power source of a small size weapon within 6 squares?
You mean like the lightsaber my Sith opponent is swinging at me?
Neat.

Those are my ideas for now, will be back with more at a later date

[GawainBS]

Good call on Power Attack.

I considered the first level in Scout, but that mixes up the bonus feats. I could take an extra level in Jedi then and one less in JM.

I tried to get Soresu in, but I haven't managed it. Which talent would you drop?

I'll note the Force Powers. I had no idea about those. Thanks!

[Shadowhunter]

A few more thoughts.

Let's see here, it's:
1 scout for: Evasion
2 soldier for: Armor Defense and Penetrating Strike
3 jedi for: block, deflect and force perception.
3 jedi knight for: ataru, shii-cho, Imp. armor defense.
3 jedi master for: 2x MAP, weapon spec.

That's 12 talents. The build is Jedi 5/Scout 1/Soldier 3/Jedi Knight 6/Jedi Master 5.
In my opinion Jedi Knight levels are more preferable to more Jedi Master level as long as both are present. It largely depends on how many force secrets one wants. In your case I think you'd benefit from only 3 levels in Master for 2x MAP.

If we toss it around a bit:
Let's take my basic example of Scout 1/Soldier 2/Jedi 5/Jedi Knight 9/Jedi Master 3.
1 scout for: Evasion.
1 soldier for: armor defense.
5 jedi knight for: ataru, shii-cho, soresu, imp. armor defense, OPEN!
2 jedi master for: 2x MAP.

Only 9 talents, but if the first level is Scout you won't be needing Force Perception. Talents are more important than Feats generally, so I think it is a good thing you managed to squeeze 3 more into your build.

If going with your build, an idea is maybe to move imp. armor defense onto your second soldier talent, remove devastating strike (though that one is really nice) and opening up a Jedi Knight slot. But the best option really just should be to go Knight 7/Master 4 instead of 6/5.
Depending on if you then have a force secret in mind for your Master level 4 it could be argued that that it might be better of as an additional level in base Jedi for a bonus feat. With 3 levels in Master you'll have 2 secrets and I don't really think most of those secrets are that attractive.

So maybe go scout 1/soldier 3/jedi 6/jedi knight 7/jedi master 3. That nets you 12 talents so you loose none of those.
Evasion, Armor Def, Imp. Armor Def, Block, Deflect, OPEN!, Ataru, Soresu, Shii-Cho, OPEN!, MAP: lightsaber, MAP: lightsaber.
2 open talents. Switch a knight for more soldier and get back Devastating attack in now an option.
Oh and Penetrating is the one that lowers shield rating, Devastating is the one that lowers threshold.


Yeah, first level in Scout really does mess up the bonus feats that have BaB prereqs, that is an issue. Oh and somehow I missed that you already had a level in it there, I must have glossed over it.

Oh and I can't believe I missed this the first time around:
Where's your Move Object power huh?
If you want some battlefield control, nothing is more fun than to throw one enemy into another enemy and watch them both fall prone and get hurt.

Force Stun seems to me like it's corner case. Most times if the enemy is within 6 squares I'd rather charge or throw him, both which probably will cause at least -1 step on the CT. I know you can manage multiple steps, but I'm dubious if you can push your modifier up for the action to be actually worthwhile in comparison to the other two. Also the opponent gains a fort defense bonus depending on his size. Medium is +/- 0, Large is +5, Huge +10, Gargantuan +20, Colossal +50.

[GawainBS]

Thanks, all very solid points. I worry "less" about Force Powers, as those are easily changeable in a build.
I'll settle on scout 1/soldier 3/jedi 6/jedi knight 7/jedi master 3, with Devastating Strike and Weapon Specialisation/Force Perception. I know Scout can have Perception, but my UTF check will better and in our games Perception is the most used skill, after Initiative & UTF. It also frees up an extra skill, for what that's worth.

Your input is really appreciated!

One more thing: equipment. Armour should be Stormtrooper armour or Light Jedi Armour, probably Stormtrooper Armour modified to have improved Fort Def via Tech Spec. The Lightsabre is best with the basic crystal, I think, since to hit is so scarce, and Tech Spec it for +2 to hit.

[Nemo]

What do you do with your Swift Action? Because greatest Swift Action sink I can think of is Danger Sense Prepared for Danger, which allows you to burn That-Divination-Style-Power to recover any of your force powers. Which mean that, basically, you can take a lot of powers just once and tap into them as needed, as long as you have Farseeings.  It's a Jedi Knight talent from Training Manual. It turns you into a Batman.
Also, other fun concept for defensive-minded Jedi is Makashi Counterpuncher; Counterpunch is a talent that allows you to Attack of Opportunity an opponent that attacks you while you are fighting defensively. So you fight defensively, then start jumping around them to provoke AoOs, and respond to their AoOs with your own AoOs, and lightsaber techniques if you want; Training Manual has GREAT counter techniques that cost you basically no actions, because they are reactions. One of them gives you ability to attack opponent that attacked you as reaction every time he attacks you until end of your next turn. Which means that against that opponent, you respond to each attack twice, once with AoO, and once with a reaction .
You get -5 to hit, but gain +10 to reflex defense, and using some Dark Rage [if you dislike that Dark Side Descriptor, just Many Shades of the Force it!] will probably neutralize that penalty.

[GawainBS]

While mechanically very solid, the counter-attacker would require me to dump too many talents I really want. Danger Sense is very tempting, though.

[Nemo]

Counterpuncher actually needs only one Soldier Talent to work, Makashi gives just extra punch.
Prepared for Danger also is great because it allows you to include each power just once, and just have multiple Farseeings. I would probably actually dump multiattack feat line and just take more Force Trainings, using Lightsaber Techniques for attack. You may have less attacks per round, but usually you gain other benefits; for example, Unhindered Charge allows you to charge as standard action, while Saber Swarm gives you two attacks with penalty scaling accordingly to how good UtF you rolled (with penalty of 0 at best roll). Actually, Unhindered Charge, Swift Flank and Hawk-Bat Swoop are great because  they allow you to move and attack as a single standard action, freeing your move action to do something else (For example, to PreparedForDanger it to something cool or use as Battlestrike). I

[GawainBS]

I have to admit, as I don't own Jedi Training Manual in paper form, I haven't read much into it. I'll look through it. Thanks for the advice!

[Nemo]

Actually, I remembered two of these Lightsaber Forms incorrectly. Unhinered Charge technically isn't a charge [it's still an attack, though] and that counter technique gives you ability to AoO when attacked, so it's kind of redundant with Counterpunch, at least against single opponent; and Counterpunch is quite fun because of ability to run around and punish enemies for attacking youm especially if you couldn't normally attack them all. It's like having multiple attacks that can be split around battlefield, though GM can gimp you pretty hard with just "they don't take their AoOs because no".
For "hard to kill guy", Energy Resistance is something pretty nice. It's from KOTOR book. It's a maintainable Damage Reduction against energy attacks. Some of the reaction lightsaber forms have pretty cool ability of halving damage of attack that hit you; halving is applied first, so DR from Energy Resistance may actually reduce damage to 0. Force Unleashed has also Force Shield, which is a reaction (yes, I like reactions  ) that gives you shield rating, which yet again can reduce incoming damage. It's situational, but Prepared for Danger followed by enough Force Trainings allows you to have some situational powers.

[GawainBS]

Note to self: scoure ebay for Jedi Training Manual.

[Nemo]

Training Regimens also are quite interesting. Quiet the Mind gives you extra Farseeing and free Visions talent [if you pass 23 UTF check], Vo'Re's First Cadence gives you fre Severint Strike talent and +2 Force bonus to will save [23 UtF] and Second Cadence gives you free Whirlwind Attack feat and +2 Force bonus to attack against flanking enemies, for example.  Other Regimens give you temporary force points per day and other cool stuff.

[Bearchucks]

Jedi's a very broad concept, armored doubly so.  Generally they come in two "flavors", warrior-monk (lightsaber-based offense, Force-based defense, feels like a traditional gish), and Force Mage (lots of offensive powers).

Definitely want to start in a class that's not Jedi.  I like a Soldier/Jedi/ET/JK build that runs on Jedi-based defenses and a neat little ET talent from CWCG Improved Stunning Strike that eliminates an opponent's standard action if you beat an opponent's damage threshold.  Charging (esp. Powerful Charge) helps with that, use Block and Deflect for your defenses.

[Ph34r_n0_3V1L]

The Legacy Era Sourcebook has the Imperial Knight prestige class that has both Armored Defense and Improved Armored Defense in one Talent, Armor Mastery.  Not sure if this helps.

[GawainBS]

Thanks! That will help!

[Shadowhunter]

Bumping it up for awesome character level 4 Falcon Punch for 46.5 damage at an attack bonus of +13 (see first post).

Best thing of all, it's on an unarmed, innocuous labor droid that no one looks twice at.