The Binder Handbook: Let's Make a Deal Discussion

[Sobolev]

My Binder guide has begun, and can be found here.  Accepting all comments and criticisms.

[Garryl]

Purple: This option is perfect.  Practically custom made to benefit Sha'ir.  If you don't take this option, there should be a reason.

I know Sha'ir are fun and all, but I think you should focus on good options for Binders instead.

[Sobolev]

Purple: This option is perfect.  Practically custom made to benefit Sha'ir.  If you don't take this option, there should be a reason.

I know Sha'ir are fun and all, but I think you should focus on good options for Binders instead.

Ha ha, I copied the formatting from the other one.  Lulz, fixed.

[123456789blaaa]

Not that i don't appreciate your efforts but don't we already have a binder handbook on the old boards?

[Bozwevial]

Not that i don't appreciate your efforts but don't we already have a binder handbook on the old boards?

The old boards cost money to maintain and will likely disappear sometime in the near future.

[Sobolev]

Not that i don't appreciate your efforts but don't we already have a binder handbook on the old boards?

The old boards cost money to maintain and will likely disappear sometime in the near future.

The old guide is also organized in a very counter intuitive way.

[123456789blaaa]

The old boards cost money to maintain and will likely disappear sometime in the near future.

But wouldn't it be easier to transfer the guide instead of writing a new one?

The old guide is also organized in a very counter intuitive way.

Thier is a cleaned up version here

[Sobolev]

The old boards cost money to maintain and will likely disappear sometime in the near future.

But wouldn't it be easier to transfer the guide instead of writing a new one?

The old guide is also organized in a very counter intuitive way.

Thier is a cleaned up version here

I know, posted by me.  It's still organized weird, I thought there would be benefit in a more standard guide.  I can just port the old one if that's what people want.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Please don't just port the old one!

I like how your new one is coming much better.  The old one was a bunch of compiled information put in some form of categorization and yet at the same time was incredibly uninformative for a handbook.

This new handbook is much more helpful.  Like skills.  Bam!  Right there, exactly which ones I need and how many to bind whoever I want.

[123456789blaaa]

I know, posted by me.

D'oh! 

Please don't just port the old one!

I like how your new one is coming much better.  The old one was a bunch of compiled information put in some form of categorization and yet at the same time was incredibly uninformative for a handbook.

This new handbook is much more helpful.  Like skills.  Bam!  Right there, exactly which ones I need and how many to bind whoever I want.

Now that i look at it.. yeah this new handbook is much better. Just thought i'd save you what i thought was unnecessary work.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I disproved the infinite turns idea by RAW

RAI however, I believe it is what was intended and thus available for any reasonable game.

Keep in mind that it is one turn at a time and there is no want to 'hold the charges' so it is true infinite DMM only for things like extend.

[Garryl]

Not even Extend. DMM costs one more turn attempt than the adjustment, so the single turn attempt at a time that Tenebrous gives would only work for +0 level spell slot metamagic, which kind of defeats the purpose of DMM.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's infinite use of devotion feats that only cost one turn undead to re-use, though.

I think that's still broken and would never allow it, though.

[Cagemarrow]

Here are a couple of links that got added to the end of the last handbook before the end of the previous boards that people may find useful. I've recently gotten through with another project so I will be finishing up the summon monster lists again and adding some additional items to the plant materials based on suggestions made in the previous thread.

A Consolidated list of the Binder Vestiges, powers granted and bind dcs
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0Byyz5iDSM5rdZDE0ZmIzN2YtNmVhMC00ZmQzLTk3NGMtNDA3MTExNDYwODg1&hl=en_US

Zceryll's Psedonatural Summon Monster List
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1qzF3oIZ73Iy6nalb1e3e2zAtniAqfPbdpsZs6nidkP0

Plant Material that a Djinni can create using its Permanent Major Creation
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aiyz5iDSM5rddG5Ud0NFeXFwUUxhLW9UNHZSNFd0aWc&hl=en_US

[Thurbane]

I might be missing something, but is there a section on recommended gear? If so, Veil of Allure for +2 DC to Cha based attacks.

[Sobolev]

I might be missing something, but is there a section on recommended gear? If so, Veil of Allure for +2 DC to Cha based attacks.

There will be, though it doesn't exist yet.

[Waazraath]

To start: thnx for the work!I have some stuff, input, questions, and suggestions.

It's good that the binder got a handbook in a more structured format; but the old version by jameswilliamogle had a lot of information that was useful, on combo's, bloodline's, items, etc. I can imagine you won't include all of it, but wouldn't it be a good idea to port the entire version over to here as well? Would be a shame to see that info got lost if BG ever gets deleted.

Since you mention infinite out of combat healing pretty early in the handbook, it's worth mentioning also the feat healing devotion: for one turn undead attempt, you can give somebody fast healing. Combine with tenebrous, and you have another option for ... and yeah, it's the same abuse as is already mentioned in this discussion, but hell, it's RAW, and plenty of party's play at an optimization level where it's not that weird.

I noticed that you don't mention the semi-legal vestige 'green lady', from the path of worms adventure path, iirc. The link to it is: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/dungeon/generalDiscussion/archives/statsForTyralandiScrimm&page=1#9 Of course, it's not official wotc, but then again, when age of worms started, I think it was, so it's as close as legal as it gets.

If you mention it, it opens up a lot more possiblities for turn undead abuse; binding both the green lady and tenebrous gives 2 turn attempts ever 5 round, giving access to unlimited use of devotion feats that cost 2 turn attempts, possiblity for DMM-abuse for an anima mage cleric, etc. etc.

With a divine version of the anima cleric, also divine feats can be abused by tenebrous, I think especially about divine vigor (CW) and sacred healing (CD, hello again infinite out of combat healing)

As a race, I think it might be worth it to include dragonborn. The stats are ok for a binder (+2 con -2 dex), but even more important:
- the flying version is a way for a binder to gain permanent flight, what can't be done by it's class features
- the version with breath weapons synergizes really well with a version of the binder that focusses on breath weapons. Iirc, abilities given by vestiges don't work as requirement for feats; so normally, breath weapon feats are out of the question, but as a dragonborn, it's possible to get max breath, entangling exhalation, etc. etc., and it also gives a breath weapon, making it at low level possible to use two maximized entangling breaths in the first two rounds of combat

Finally, I'm wondering about the KotSS, wether it's as mandatory as the handbook suggests. Of course, it's good. But comparing binder 20 with binder 15 / KotSS, the differece is that binder 20 has:
-1 bab
-1 fort
+2 will
2 extra feats (bonus feat and didn't spend weapon focus on a weapon you won't use after gaining entry to KotSS anyway)
2 more pact augmentations
no med and heavy armor proficiency, no shield proficiency and no martial weapon proficiency
mind blank
no vestige power
no vestige protection (aura)
no vestige surge
no apotheosis

Weighing all that, against each other, the KotSS seems a little more attractive (barring abuse of outsider status, then KotSS is of course much more powerful). But not that much... and a major disadvantage of the KotSS is that it ties the character to a specific vestige... that comes at the cost of flexibility, which is a major point of playing a binder in the first place. So I understand why i's recommended as a strong option, but a 'must have'.

[Sobolev]

To start: thnx for the work!I have some stuff, input, questions, and suggestions.

It's good that the binder got a handbook in a more structured format; but the old version by jameswilliamogle had a lot of information that was useful, on combo's, bloodline's, items, etc. I can imagine you won't include all of it, but wouldn't it be a good idea to port the entire version over to here as well? Would be a shame to see that info got lost if BG ever gets deleted.

Since you mention infinite out of combat healing pretty early in the handbook, it's worth mentioning also the feat healing devotion: for one turn undead attempt, you can give somebody fast healing. Combine with tenebrous, and you have another option for ... and yeah, it's the same abuse as is already mentioned in this discussion, but hell, it's RAW, and plenty of party's play at an optimization level where it's not that weird.

I noticed that you don't mention the semi-legal vestige 'green lady', from the path of worms adventure path, iirc. The link to it is: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/olderProducts/dungeon/generalDiscussion/archives/statsForTyralandiScrimm&page=1#9 Of course, it's not official wotc, but then again, when age of worms started, I think it was, so it's as close as legal as it gets.

If you mention it, it opens up a lot more possiblities for turn undead abuse; binding both the green lady and tenebrous gives 2 turn attempts ever 5 round, giving access to unlimited use of devotion feats that cost 2 turn attempts, possiblity for DMM-abuse for an anima mage cleric, etc. etc.

With a divine version of the anima cleric, also divine feats can be abused by tenebrous, I think especially about divine vigor (CW) and sacred healing (CD, hello again infinite out of combat healing)

As a race, I think it might be worth it to include dragonborn. The stats are ok for a binder (+2 con -2 dex), but even more important:
- the flying version is a way for a binder to gain permanent flight, what can't be done by it's class features
- the version with breath weapons synergizes really well with a version of the binder that focusses on breath weapons. Iirc, abilities given by vestiges don't work as requirement for feats; so normally, breath weapon feats are out of the question, but as a dragonborn, it's possible to get max breath, entangling exhalation, etc. etc., and it also gives a breath weapon, making it at low level possible to use two maximized entangling breaths in the first two rounds of combat

Finally, I'm wondering about the KotSS, wether it's as mandatory as the handbook suggests. Of course, it's good. But comparing binder 20 with binder 15 / KotSS, the differece is that binder 20 has:
-1 bab
-1 fort
+2 will
2 extra feats (bonus feat and didn't spend weapon focus on a weapon you won't use after gaining entry to KotSS anyway)
2 more pact augmentations
no med and heavy armor proficiency, no shield proficiency and no martial weapon proficiency
mind blank
no vestige power
no vestige protection (aura)
no vestige surge
no apotheosis

Weighing all that, against each other, the KotSS seems a little more attractive (barring abuse of outsider status, then KotSS is of course much more powerful). But not that much... and a major disadvantage of the KotSS is that it ties the character to a specific vestige... that comes at the cost of flexibility, which is a major point of playing a binder in the first place. So I understand why i's recommended as a strong option, but a 'must have'.

I will post some of the things from the old book, but likely not all.  I have no opinion about porting it over.  I'm going to refrain from just copying many of the combos because they either don't work as advertised, or don't actually combine in a particularly powerful way.

I actually do mention the Green Lady, though not by name, I referred to it as "That homebrew vestige by James Jacobs".  Personally I think it's crazy overpowered, combining the abilities of a level 4 Vestige, a level 3 Vestige, and MORE ABILITIES, all in a level 2 that you can start the game with.  On top of all the nonsense turn undead is doing for you at level 1 (as good or better than its doing for a Cleric since your Cha is probably at least as high), you also have access to a level 1 spell, so just pick color spray or something.  I think the whole thing is actually an incredibly impressive display of why NOT to allow homebrew, even when it's pseudo-official.

I will mention Dragonborns, you make a good point there.  Thanks.

As for KotSS, if we ignore for a moment the Binder bonus feat, which are crazily restrictive, you are left with the most important parts being you are down a feat (the one you used on Weapon Focus to get in) and Mind Blank lost, in exchange for the various parts of KotSS, and Medium, Heavy, Shield and Martial Weapon Proficiences (Probably worth the one feat).  So Mind Blank, or the ability to use Zceryll two times in a row immediately?

[Waazraath]

Ah, I missed your reference to the Green Lady, indeed. I don't know if I agree with you though... yes it's good, but lolOP? Especially without devotion feat abuse, I think it's good, but not too OP, after all, gift of magic isn't that great, it's not like Karsus is recommended as a very good vestige because of that. And compared with Zceryll??

As for the KotSS, fair enough, usually we don't play with online vestiges anyway, so 2 times in a row using Zceryll could be worth it. If you use online vestiges, you probly are always bound to it anyway. But for the rest? Armor, shield and weapon proficiencies are nice, but no more then that at that point in the game, it doen't make that much difference anymore (KotSS with Zceryll entry level would be 11). And you forget the 2 pact augmentations, at that point (imho) probably +2 on saves, what would give binder 20 +1 fort, +2 ref and +4 will compared with the binder/KotSS. Again, KotSS is very good, but (in any case without the online vestiges) I wouldn't consider it mandatory, also because it limits flexiblity.

[Shadowhunter]

A useful link for a document I stumbled upon years ago and put up on Scribd:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/38835505/Tome-of-Magic-Additional-Vestige-Collection-v2-1-2