The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.

[Wiggins]

@DD, ninja'd you by about 12 hours there

For getting back on topic, I think there are a lot of ways that we end up turning this mechanic (linear warriors, quadratic wizards) into the background of most of our worlds.

All the big bads (and big goods for that matter) are full spellcasters of some description.

It often ends up in games I've seen, where the idea becomes that the full spellcasters are all in competition all the time, and that there "Isn't enough room on this plane for the both of us!" Even to the extent of certain spells drawing the attention of HIGHER level wizards, fearing new competition as an adventurer becomes a swiftly rising star, and deciding to take him out before he becomes a threat. 

And I don't mind not being the main character in every story, so if I can be the mage-slayer best friend of a wizard to keep him alive all the way through 'til he can gain ultimate power, I'm loving it.

[dman11235]

Does it have to be the caster though?  Why CAN'T mundane characters be the big-bad or big-good?  I'm of the opinion that they should be able to fill those role.

[CaptRory]

I think it's a matter of scale.

Any kind of Fighter Type can only kill a few people at a time. And he's not going to be able to hit someone so hard that they get a free wish or bring someone back from the dead.

A Wizard Type can hurl a fireball and clear a room, or turn someone to stone, or break reality.

Phenomenal Cosmic Power trumps a guy with a sword.


The problem is, how do you bring up the level of the ordinary or reduce the power of the cosmic.

To reference it again, Codex Alera did an excellant job of that. Even the strongest Furycrafters were just ordinary men and women. Swords and Arrows were still extremely deadly and the best defense was getting out of the way. And the fact that everyone had access to magic helped balance things a little in terms of Magic vs. Mundane.


When you look at Dungeons and Dragons or any other High Magic setting, the problem comes to Wizards vs. Fighters. Wizards aren't going to win a bar brawl. They're going to suck the bar and everyone in it into another dimension and use their souls to power their Doomsday MagiTech Machine. There is no real balance there.

If you were to create a setting where it was balanced, and that balance was reflected in the rules, it wouldn't be an issue. And it isn't for various Point Buy systems where you can make a gun that has the same effect as a fireball going off or a sword attack that turns your enemy into stone.




Now, going back to your point, there is no reason why a non-magical character couldn't be the Big Bad or Big Good. Gandalf wasn't the hero of The Lord of the Rings although he was an influential character. What's keeping them from showing up as the Big Bad Villain is a difference in perspective mostly in the minds of the GM. You tend to think, "What's the toughest thing I can throw at my party? A wizard! Or a Demon Wizard! Or a Wizard Wizard!" Fighting men tend to be cannon fodder. Part of that is also the Magic is Scarce belief whether it actually makes sense for the setting. That means Fighters get put in as mooks and redshirts to protect the squishy wizard.

[dman11235]

What about Jack Rakan?  See, why can't the guy with a sword have cosmic power WITHOUT it it being magic?  Why can't he swing his sword so awesomely that he annihilates a town with one swing?  Why does the paradigm have to exist that mundane guys can't be leaders?

[Prime32]

What about Jack Rakan?  See, why can't the guy with a sword have cosmic power WITHOUT it it being magic?  Why can't he swing his sword so awesomely that he annihilates a town with one swing?  Why does the paradigm have to exist that mundane guys can't be leaders?

Well Jack can use magic, the reason being that he's "the ultimate combat veteran" and magic is a style of combat (all high-level characters in Negima are gishes). He just doesn't use it very often, and doesn't seem to know many spells that lack combat uses (IIRC when he wanted to extract his memories into a movie he hired someone).

Also, see the page image here.

[dman11235]

Yes, he can.  But he also used mundane methods to shatter worlds.  Before he even knew magic, he went toe to toe with high powered wizards, just because he was THAT awesome.  Ku Fei as well.  Awesome, no magic.  The girl who made Chachamaru (Hitomi?).  I think the problem actually is just that magic is so freaking cool it's freaking everyfreaking where oh god I just blew up a DRAGON did you SEE how COOL that was?  Poiint being, the cool thing always gets more spotlight than the not cool thing.  My argument is that characters with mundane only powers (although items are not counted in this, so they can have magic effects through those) can be just as cool.  And just as powerful.  Or rather, as powerful as the balance point that's set, magic's too powerful right now.

[CaptRory]

I think we're going in circles.

It's a combination of problems but it really comes back to the Rules.

Point buy systems are much more flexible in that regard. And class based games can be built around it. But any game that uses Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards is going to find themselves in this situation. Unfortunately, games that attempt to completely balance every class tend to lose the distinction between those classes except in vague terms.


Seeing as how it's all fiction, melee attacks can indeed be as powerful as any magic spell. But they aren't. The games aren't built that way.

[veekie]

Yes, he can.  But he also used mundane methods to shatter worlds.

Word of God was that its basic Gravity Magic he picked up from watching Alberio do it. Its simply the Micro Black Hole spell(which incidentally causes extremely severe math burdens on the one maintaining the dimension, which means unless they dedicate their full attention to the matter, it breaks)

Before he even knew magic, he went toe to toe with high powered wizards, just because he was THAT awesome.  Ku Fei as well.  Awesome, no magic.  The girl who made Chachamaru (Hitomi?).  I think the problem actually is just that magic is so freaking cool it's freaking everyfreaking where oh god I just blew up a DRAGON did you SEE how COOL that was?  Poiint being, the cool thing always gets more spotlight than the not cool thing.  My argument is that characters with mundane only powers (although items are not counted in this, so they can have magic effects through those) can be just as cool.  And just as powerful.  Or rather, as powerful as the balance point that's set, magic's too powerful right now.

That,not quite. They are generating magical-type effects through mundane means, which may not necessarily be always compatible with verisimilitude and setting. You have two, non-exclusive paths, where a mundane character can pick up magical effects.

They may learn particular magic by rote(almost universally self directed defense, buffs or utlity), with limitations true magi do not experience(long cast time, extra material components and foci, low casting power, etc), as well as being unable to innovate new spells proper(reflected in an extremely 'locked in' range of magic they are unable to easily increase). This option allows ritual buffs, enhancing items, even shapeshifting and purely magical effect access(such as true seeing, energy resistance, fire shield, etc)

They may perform magical effect through sheer competence, which is generally simply extending existing mundane capabilities past the bounds of 'possible'.

[midnight_v]

I think we're going in circles.

It's a combination of problems but it really comes back to the Rules.

Point buy systems are much more flexible in that regard. And class based games can be built around it. But any game that uses Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards is going to find themselves in this situation. Unfortunately, games that attempt to completely balance every class tend to lose the distinction between those classes except in vague terms.


Seeing as how it's all fiction, melee attacks can indeed be as powerful as any magic spell. But they aren't. The games aren't built that way.

Seeing as how it's all fiction, melee attacks can indeed be as powerful as any magic spell. But they aren't. The games aren't built that way.

Hmm... I've found the 3.5 iterations that DO actually breach that, meet untold resistance.
Tome of Battle, Frank and K's Tome Series... a few others honestly.
Get met with "Thats too good" even when the Full Casters are already doing things that are way more powerful.

Though I'd like to say that some of the issue is a conceptual one. If the concept is "human fighter" its hard to take that and move it towards.
Stops a thousand metors from hitting the earth. . . 
bit one could conceptualize a mage doing something similar.

Anyfighter concept that pulls off somethign like that is either(and I'm quoting) "Too Anime" or "No longer a human fighter".
People are unfarily biased about what consitutes versimilitued in a story.

[Unbeliever]

Or, you need a different metric.  The human fighter can slay the Thoth-Amon rather than knock the meteors out of the sky.  Both, let's posit, equally necessary to saving the world, etc. 

You don't need strict parity, not everyone needs to do everything that everyone else can, they just need to do equally important things.  And, in theory (say with Tome of Battle or the Tome Series), both killing Thoth-Amon and stopping the storm of meteors can be as challenging and require just as much system mastery (probably more, depending). 

[DDchampion]

Hmm... I've found the 3.5 iterations that DO actually breach that, meet untold resistance.
Tome of Battle, Frank and K's Tome Series... a few others honestly.
Get met with "Thats too good" even when the Full Casters are already doing things that are way more powerful.

They meet untold resistance because they, plainly speaking, suck.

At least a caster can hold back, and it needs to be properly built to shine. You can't hold back with tome material and the classes already rape the game by default. Everything but plain DM fiat will be curbstomped flat unless the player actively and purposedly gimps the character. And people wil much rather optimize their characters upwards than downwards.

[caelic]

Joel Rosenberg wrote a couple of books a while back set in a world called D'Shai.  While they were never incredibly well-known, they were a good read, and the setting fascinated me.

The idea was that magic does permeate the world.  There are wizards ("Zuhrir") who manipulate it through rituals and applications of magical law, but there are also "Kazuh," which are sort-of divinely oriented castes that passively use magic to become better at whatever it is they are.

For instance, the messengers of the world are Kazuh runners.  Whey they raise Kazuh, they become able to run faster than horses for days at a time.  A Kazuh warrior is going to be superhumanly good on the battlefield, only likely to be defeated by another Kazuh warrior with greater inner strength.  A Kazuh acrobat can tumble through a field of spears without getting a nick, and so on and so forth.

It's always seemed to me like this might be a fruitful starting point for 3.5, and I've considered running a game where there ARE no classes without some sort of magic--ToB classes for warrior-types, and so forth.  The idea is that, yes, magic permeates the world and any exceptional individual is going to make use of it some way, but that doesn't necessarily mean casting spells. 

[dman11235]

ToB greatly illustrates my point.  While there are supernatural disciplines, there's also mundane ones.  Primarily there are mundane ones.  It's a well designed, well balanced system that has magic (SS) and mundane (Warblade) and everything in between (Crusader) at roughly equal footing power wise.

@veekie: I did not know that.  I haven't read anything since shortly after the return of Paru's ship to Mahora (I think two chapters after that, it's been over 8 months I think).  But the point is that they aren't magic users.  Especially Ku Fei.  Against level-appropriate enemies, she can hold her own.  Oh!  Sokka and Suki from Avatar as well.  Both bendingless, entirely, not even with items, both very useful to the team, very capable against benders.

@uunbeliever: exactly!  The fighter doesn't need to create fireballs with mundane means exactly as the wizard does it.  He just needs to be able to do something of that calibre when the wizard can.  Wizards can stop the meteors with a huge, draining spell relatively easily, but have a hard time killing the demon lord, and will probably end up damned for eternity (might escape later though), the fighter can't do jack against a meteor shower (might stop one or two at a high level, but just can't be in enough places to stop them all), but goes toe to toe with the demon lord and ends up cutting its head off relatively easily.

@DDchampion: This is sort of like beating a dead horse, but ToB is one of the most well designed systems available.  It's hardly overpowered, and is actually really well balanced.  Not sure where you're getting the "curbstomps the campaign" bit, but it's jsut plain not true.

[Prime32]

@veekie: I did not know that.  I haven't read anything since shortly after the return of Paru's ship to Mahora (I think two chapters after that, it's been over 8 months I think).

It's explained in a flashback right before Negi uses Raiten Taisou for the first time.

@DDchampion: This is sort of like beating a dead horse, but ToB is one of the most well designed systems available.  It's hardly overpowered, and is actually really well balanced.  Not sure where you're getting the "curbstomps the campaign" bit, but it's jsut plain not true.

Frank & K's Tomes, not ToB.

[midnight_v]

Or, you need a different metric.  The human fighter can slay the Thoth-Amon rather than knock the meteors out of the sky.  Both, let's posit, equally necessary to saving the world, etc. 

You don't need strict parity, not everyone needs to do everything that everyone else can, they just need to do equally important things.  And, in theory (say with Tome of Battle or the Tome Series), both killing Thoth-Amon and stopping the storm of meteors can be as challenging and require just as much system mastery (probably more, depending).

Hmm... that ONLY works, I would think if the Wizard was somehow incapable of killing Thoth-Amon, AND stopping the storm of meteors.
I agree that you don't need exact parity but "CONCEPTUALLY" the Human fighter a lot of bias against it from people, so making them magic in a magic world works... as long as its known and written like that from the start. There has to basically be no "everyman" running around fighting dragons, and beholders, and pcs... with no powers.  Even then people are going to want to play that and maybe they can but that class isn't "Fighter" but "Relic Hunter" because the only way that's reasonable by above rubric is by the guy getting Artifact swords, Power Gloves, and ironman suits, written into his class. I mean I'm spitballing there but thats my thoughts on it so far. . .

At least a caster can hold back, and it needs to be properly built to shine. You can't hold back with tome material and the classes already rape the game by default. Everything but plain DM fiat will be curbstomped flat unless the player actively and purposedly gimps the character. And people wil much rather optimize their characters upwards than downwards.

Lol! You mad bro? Somebody rape your game that wasn't a wizard or CoDzilla?
... seriously ....
Okay jokes aside, this is an example of the problem when it comes to these things. I'm going to say your analysis is wrong.
Statment: "At least a caster can hold back"/"The tome material cannot"

Response: If holding back is the answer then you've acknowledged somethings are terribly wrong. however if thats your rubric then "holding back" i.e. I have disjuction, but I don't cast it, or "I have wildshape but I don't turn into dinosaurs or elementals", thats not different than saying I have "Hordebreaker, but I'm not gonna break hordes with it" however, the all of that falls apart the second you start realizeing that the whole game or at least anytime you face an opposing npc with character levels. . . your argument for "rapes the whole game" falls apart. (also "rape" is totally inapproprtiate as a gaming term"

If you're going to be petulant about it you should at least acknowledege that there are power levels set instead of being an ass and saying "They suck!" and by extension "Thats bad wrong fun!!".

Honestly... Tomes Material= gameplay set to CoDzilla, and Wizard (and NOT even the greatest of that) but not planar bubble levels just playable levels) and if we're being honest
 Tome of Battle = gameplay set to Rogue.

  Not that you can't break the game still but that these things don't really exist in the same conceptual space. From the begining and highlighted more and more till the end.

ToB greatly illustrates my point.  While there are supernatural disciplines, there's also mundane ones.  Primarily there are mundane ones.  It's a well designed, well balanced system that has magic (SS) and mundane (Warblade) and everything in between (Crusader) at roughly equal footing power wise.

Hmm... it works but "A little magic never hurt anybody" is cool but it too is met with untold resistance, and by NO measure does it "suck" (thanks DD).
I've played in a few games where there was a Tob only NO base warrior classes... it works but again....
Unbeliever had it right, Its all about the metric being used. . . In my head I still think people are smart enough to think killing Thoth-Amon (cool reference) and swatting the 1,000 meteors out of the sky are equal accomplishments. Unless as a rule the planet tipper CAN'T beat thoth-amon.
tiers implemented ala 4th edition I think suddently was a good thing so everyone was on the same page.

[dman11235]

@veekie: I did not know that.  I haven't read anything since shortly after the return of Paru's ship to Mahora (I think two chapters after that, it's been over 8 months I think).

It's explained in a flashback right before Negi uses Raiten Taisou for the first time.

@DDchampion: This is sort of like beating a dead horse, but ToB is one of the most well designed systems available.  It's hardly overpowered, and is actually really well balanced.  Not sure where you're getting the "curbstomps the campaign" bit, but it's jsut plain not true.

Frank & K's Tomes, not ToB.

Ah, well, anyways, it's been just under a year since I've read it, so I can't really remember.  And he did include ToB on the list of "things that suck/curbstomp campaigns".  Although, I may not like Frank and K's tomes, but I don't think that they overpowered melee.  At all.

Hmm... that ONLY works, I would think if the Wizard was somehow incapable of killing Thoth-Amon, AND stopping the storm of meteors.
I agree that you don't need exact parity but "CONCEPTUALLY" the Human fighter a lot of bias against it from people, so making them magic in a magic world works... as long as its known and written like that from the start. There has to basically be no "everyman" running around fighting dragons, and beholders, and pcs... with no powers.  Even then people are going to want to play that and maybe they can but that class isn't "Fighter" but "Relic Hunter" because the only way that's reasonable by above rubric is by the guy getting Artifact swords, Power Gloves, and ironman suits, written into his class. I mean I'm spitballing there but thats my thoughts on it so far. . .

Yes, that's true.  And I'm not so sure that that wasn't a goal, somewhat, but wizards ended up having abilities that lent themselves to things OTHER than what they were intended.  Take the Painless Death spell thread, you trick someone into drinking a 1st level spell potion that kills them no save?  And it's not that they should have no powers.  It's that they shouldn't have MAGIC powers.  I can't believe I'm using this movie as a serious example of what I'm trying to say, but in Wild Zero (A japanese movie about zombies caused by aliens for some reason), there's a scene where Guitar Wolf comes to the rescue of the protagonist, on his motorcycle, using his revolver.  He fires off one bullet, and that bullet takes out three zombies.  Hits one zombie, head explodes, continues through, hits another zombie, head explodes, fragment of that head hits another zombie, head explodes.  It's not magic, it's just really powerful to the point of being able to use a normal gun to do that.

On on the "a little magic never hurt anyone" thing: you're right, except when the character is adamantly against magic.  However, I do believe that's a specific class that needs to adress it.  I don't think, however, every character should have access to casting automatically.

[DDchampion]

Frank & K's Tomes, not ToB.

Ah, well, anyways, it's been just under a year since I've read it, so I can't really remember.  And he did include ToB on the list of "things that suck/curbstomp campaigns".

I did specify I was complaining about the tomes, but I apologize anyway for any kind of confusion I may've created. The tomes don't even come close as being such a nice melee suplement as ToB is, and that shows on the huge amount of custom schools around the net.

Really, I don't see any "untold resistance" against ToB, like some people would put it. People ask for it on online campaigns and get aproved all the time as far as I can see. There's however great resistance against the tomes, and for very good reasons. Even trying to group the two togheter in terms of quality and/or popularity is completely absurd.

[midnight_v]

      If you look around the net DDchampion then you'll see that there are thousands of posts literally thousands of post from the time the tob coming out till today that, that say its "Too anime", "Unrealistic", "non-traditional", and "overpowered". Now thats typically from people who are playing in thier homegame and someone buys the tob. So culture shock occurs. Though if you've only started internet posting in the last 6 months or so you might not know... If you want to see I could post links. Everyone else here knows, and has seen it, and I don't want you in the dark.
     As for the tomes I use that so I do find your diatribe somewhat offensive, but I'll give you a few ponts because were all a bit opionated here and there so meh. Like Dman11235 said it didn't overpower them like "AT ALL" it puts them on par with clerics casting divine power and God Wizards and Druids with natural spell, or at least it doesn't make you feel bad for writing fighter at the top of your page when your in a group or face one of said entities.
Also... aboleths, dragons, and outsiders, oh my. Ultimately it does what its supposed to. You make not like that goal but, it does what it sat down to do.
 Moving on.
The resistance boils down to 1 thing. "Fighters having nice things" seems to break large numbers of peoples versimilitude (not to mention being told "look the fighter(s) as writeen don't work very well), some people blame and I do mean BLAME eastern influence, but don't go into how they expect a fighter w/o tome style feats (which is a good idea, you have to admit even if you don't particularly care for the execution), or tome of battle style manuevers, to exist in a magical world.

Personally, a lot of what I consider when I look at a system and its treatment of its melee, is what I've been calling "Modelling" but that might not be a good term.
     Here goes: How good does your melee system recreate "Drizz't and Artemis"; vs how well does it model someone like "Szass Tam or Raistlin"because while I'm way beyond sitting down rolling up a drow elf ranger, in his stories he and artemis fight the way many people want their characters to fight.
Like Drizzt vs Glabrezu etc...
Other characters I tend to think about in terms of modelling: Wolverine, Doctor Strange, Scorpion from mortal combat.
For the melee's most of their melee power comes from "them" and most of the Casters power come from them as well.
The problem in my book is most of the D&D systems keep you far away for the conceptual design spaces from too many characters.
The Tome fighter: Lets you Drizzt.
The ToB: Lets you Drizzt.
The Core(and using manybooks after it) don't.
Since we know the Cr System is build for Fighter, Healer, Trapbreaker, Evoker... and that theres so much more out there than that. People really need to come out the dark ages about fighters being magical OR having appropriate non-magical defenses and more important: ABILITIES.

TL;DR
Though ALL of that is contigent upon; defining the rubric by which you wish a fighter to exist in your games. I think many people are still thinking that its okay "because wizards are weak at low levels, fighters can be weak at high levels"  magic fighters fix it but some people want non-magic fighters (which preclude in many people books things non-magical like Dimond Nightmare blade and it ilk)

[Wiggins]

In one of my current groups, the wizard has killed all but 2 of the monsters we've encountered, 1 of which was taken out by the druid, and the other by my swordsage/marshall. We started at level 3 and 6 months of play later are level 6.

Wizards are weak at what levels again?

[dman11235]

Actually, I'm not a fan of the tomes.  And actually for a similar reason to DD's reason.  I want to bring casters down to mundane's level, rather than do what they did and put mundanes up to casters.  However, I do agree that they didn't go too far.