2) I'm not trying to say that to be effective all Fighters need to cast magic spells. What I am saying is, in a setting where magic does incredibly useful stuff that gives you new tactical options in the career of adventuring and is also easy enough to learn, Fighters, being adventurers, should be able to, and would be stupid not to, learn and use magic spells. It's the utility, not the raw power.
3) I am not against Tome of Battle style, Charles Atlas Superpowers. There's no reason Fighters can't have that stuff. But again, hitting the Starspawn so hard it implodes is still just hitting something. If magic is all over the place and can be used to do things like "hamper vision and movement" in an area by 5th level, or "bar extradimensional movement" by 7th level, then Charles Atlas Superpowers can't be used to replicate that stuff and almost certainly can't compete with it in terms of utility. If that stuff is easy to learn for some classes, then it shouldn't be impossible to learn for everyone else.
The OP reads:
It struck me the other day. If a mundane warrior lived in a world in which the earth itself bleeds magic, millions (if we populate a whole Earth-sized world) of magic items are in use at any given time, and spells can be learned that increase physical strength and reaction, or make weapon attacks more effective, well, then that mundane warrior would be both a freak of nature and mentally handicapped to not pick up some magic throughout his career (not to mention, dead before long).
There is literally NO reason why a Fighter would even exist in such a magic infused world, let alone why a Fighter couldn't learn a couple spells like Burning Blade or Sonic Shield.
So, you can see what I was responding to in my posts. Also, it sounds to me that you contradict yourself on point 2) in the first quote: all Fighters shouldn't need to cast spells to be effective, but they'd be morons if they didn't.
There is a difference between being effective and being smart. There's also a difference between me saying that you don't need magic if you want to be effective and me saying that you'd be stupid to not pick up an ability that gives you a completely unique tactical option outside of your normal abilities if said ability is easy enough for you to pick up. Kind of a really big difference.
It seems, though, that the line Ziegander keeps pushing is essentially that there should be not much material difference between the classes. If it's easy for a 7th level mage to do something (e.g., dimensional anchor spell) then it shouldn't be too difficult for anyone else. This seems at odds with the whole D&D class mechanic -- in a lot of ways, the answer is "play a different game" b/c the deep level assumptions of class roles and the like are being abandoned. Further, this once again has nothing to do with magic: you can say the same thing about sneaking, picking locks ... err ... White Raven Tacticsing ...
No. That's not what I'm saying, and no, you
can't say the same thing about sneaking, picking, locks, or White Raven Tactics. You know why?
Because anyone CAN learn to do any of those things.But anyway, I guess that brings us back around to fix multiclassing, make Arcane Study and Divine Right into feats (requiring Magical Aptitude and True Believer respectively) and boom, I guess that's as good as we can get in D&D. It's probably good enough.
Acquiring Magic Through Feats
Magical AptitudePrerequisites: Int 13, Cha 13, Knowledge (Arcane) 1 rank
Benefit: You have studied the magical arts more extensively than your fellows, and are rewarded with a +2 bonus to Spellcraft and Use Magic Device checks, as well as knowledge of a single 0-level arcane spell. More than that, you gain spell slots in which to prepare your spell, and any others you might learn (see below). Like a Wizard, you keep your known spells in a spellbook, you must prepare these spells before you can cast them, and you must rest for 8 hours to regain your spell slots. You have an arcane caster level equal to the combined total of your Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard, and Wu Jen levels + 1/2 your levels in any other classes.
You do not automatically add spells to your spellbook and cannot independently research spells the way a Wizard can, but you can copy spells from other spellbooks or from scrolls into your spellbook.
To cast a spell you know you must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level. The saving throw DC of any spell you cast is 10 + spell level + your Charisma modifier.
Magical Aptitude Spell Slots| Level | 0-lvl | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th |
| 1 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- | -- | -- |
| 2 | 2 | 0 | -- | -- | -- | -- |
| 3 | 2 | 1 | -- | -- | -- | -- |
| 4 | 3 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- | -- |
| 5 | 3 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- | -- |
| 6 | 3 | 2 | 0 | -- | -- | -- |
| 7 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -- | -- | -- |
| 8 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- |
| 9 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- |
| 10 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- |
| 11 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -- | -- |
| 12 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -- |
| 13 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -- |
| 14 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -- |
| 15 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -- |
| 16 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 17 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 18 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 19 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 20 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 |
A Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Duskblade, Hexblade, Sorcerer, Wizard, or Wu Jen that takes this feat adds the spell slots gained to the spell slots they acquire through class levels. They do not necessarily need an Intelligence score to cast their spells, nor do they necessarily base the save DCs of their spells on Charisma, but rather cast spells learned from this feat in the same way as described in their class entries. Spells learned from this feat are, however, always recorded in a spellbook and must always be prepared like a Wizard's spells.
Arcane StudyPrerequisites: Int 13, Cha 13, Magical Aptitude
Benefit: Add any two arcane spells that you have a high enough caster level to cast to your spellbook.
Special: You may take this feat up to three times.
True BelieverPrerequisites: Wis 13, Cha 13, Knowledge (Religion) 1 rank, Must worship a deity
Benefit: You are a devout believer in the cause of the gods, and are blessed with a +2 bonus to Diplomacy checks, as well as knowledge of a single 0-level divine spell. You may also use a relic (Complete Divine, pg 88) of the deity you worship. More than that, you gain spell slots in which to prepare your spell, and any others you might learn (see below). Like a Cleric, you designate a time for prayer, you must prepare these spells before you can cast them, and you must pray to regain your spell slots. You have a divine caster level equal to the combined total of your Archivist, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Shugenja, and Spirit Shaman levels + 1/2 your levels in any other classes.
You do not know every spell on your list like a Cleric or Druid does, nor do you gain the knowledge of new spells as you increase in level like a Favored Soul does, but you may learn new spells from an Archivist's prayerbook, or from divine scrolls in the same way that an Archivist does.
To cast a spell you know you must have a Wisdom score of at least 10 + the spell's level. The saving throw DC of any spell you cast is 10 + spell level + your Charisma modifier.
True Believer Spell Slots| Level | 0-lvl | 1st | 2nd | 3rd | 4th | 5th |
| 1 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- | -- | -- |
| 2 | 2 | 0 | -- | -- | -- | -- |
| 3 | 2 | 1 | -- | -- | -- | -- |
| 4 | 3 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- | -- |
| 5 | 3 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- | -- |
| 6 | 3 | 2 | 0 | -- | -- | -- |
| 7 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -- | -- | -- |
| 8 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- |
| 9 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- |
| 10 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 0 | -- | -- |
| 11 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | -- | -- |
| 12 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -- |
| 13 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -- |
| 14 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 | -- |
| 15 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 0 | -- |
| 16 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 17 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 18 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 19 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
| 20 | 3 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1 |
An Archivist, Cleric, Druid, Favored Soul, Paladin, Ranger, Shugenja, or Spirit Shaman that takes this feat adds the spell slots gained to the spell slots they acquire through class levels. They do not necessarily need an Wisdom score to cast their spells, nor do they necessarily base the save DCs of their spells on Charisma, but rather cast spells learned from this feat in the same way as described in their class entries. Spells slots gained from this feat are, however only regained the way a Cleric regains her spell slots, and spells learned from this feat must always be prepared like a Cleric's spells.
Divine RightPrerequisites: Wis 13, Cha 13, True Believer
Benefit: You learn any two divine spells that you have a high enough caster level to cast.
Special: You may take this feat up to three times.
