Author Topic: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.  (Read 38600 times)

Offline FatR

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #80 on: February 07, 2012, 12:59:13 PM »
As about how to solve that, I'm personally inclined towards the solution of make the "Fighter" class like 5-6 levels long (because I like some low fantasy in my DnD too), while, at the very least, giving it skills on about 3.5's Bard level, so that it will not feel like a stabbing machine (refluffing it a bit as a quintessential adventurer, ready to face everything the nature can throw at him). Then provide a wide array of easily accessible transformative Prestige Classes, like Valkyrie, Death Knight or Artifisoldier. So, still no "spells" in the strict sense of the word, but clearly defined sources for overtly supernaturnatural abilities.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 01:02:10 PM by FatR »

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #81 on: February 07, 2012, 01:04:53 PM »
Their options aren't necessarily just "punch something harder".  It could be "punch the Wall of Force away", or "punch to prevent caster from casting" or "punch away death".  Your blindsight?  Why not?  Why not just some sort of ESP-style sense that grants you Blindsight?  Why not some method of countering casters using mundane means of resistance?

And even though in name it's the subject of this thread, it's not actually true.  This thread isn't about the Fighter, it's about the fighter.  The mundane warrior, not a specific class.
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Offline FatR

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #82 on: February 07, 2012, 01:39:59 PM »
Their options aren't necessarily just "punch something harder".  It could be "punch the Wall of Force away", or "punch to prevent caster from casting" or "punch away death".  Your blindsight?  Why not?  Why not just some sort of ESP-style sense that grants you Blindsight?  Why not some method of countering casters using mundane means of resistance?
      See, that's what I mean. You're talking about "countering casters using mundane means of resilience", while describing feats that are anything but mundane. Why do you insist on calling your "mundane warrior" mundane, when it can punch away death? So that people writing powers for warrior classes will be misguided by this and not sure what sort of abilities actually are appropriate for them?
 

Offline Wiggins

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #83 on: February 07, 2012, 01:50:26 PM »
Punching away Death approaches Wolverine levels of Mary-Sue

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #84 on: February 07, 2012, 02:05:13 PM »
We have people today who can "punch away death".  They're called doctors.  I used the word "punch" because you seem to think that that's all mundane warriors can do.  BUt what does a doctor do?  It heals, with mundane means.  Heals things that normally would be a ridiculous notion to be healed....without magic.  Or more literally, there's actually therapies that involve trauma of different sorts to heal.  Chiropractors, electro-shock therapy, accupuncture, massage, etc.  Open your mind to possibilities, and you'll see a number of "magical" things that can be achieved through mundane means.

Let me put it this way.  Nikola Tesla once claimed he could split the earth in two with nothing more than a few well-timed explosions.  He actually did use the earth as a conductor to create a 130' lightning bolt.  The man was not magical, but he was a genius.  There's a man who can survive in freezing conditions easily and actually climbed Mount Everest wearing nothing but sandals and bike shorts.  There are people who can channel energy through their hands, making them warm to the touch....burning to the touch, actually, and I'm not talking about myths of the Tibetan Monks or something, this is actually documented.  And in real life?  We are level 6 at most, most of us are level 2 or 3 by mid adulthood.  So just imagine what things a true high-level person would be able to do in real life.
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Offline FatR

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #85 on: February 07, 2012, 03:20:15 PM »
We have people today who can "punch away death".  They're called doctors.  I used the word "punch" because you seem to think that that's all mundane warriors can do.
       No I don't think so. However, I know for certain, than even professional authors, who almost certainly have far more active imaginations than any of us here, have severe problems thinking of things for warriors to do besides punching even in the worlds where warrior training explicitly makes you a superhuman. Even in, say, One Piece uberwarriors basically just punch stuff, only in increasingly over-the-top ways, 95% of the time. In fact, I already stated that as one of the reasons of my negative opinion on warriors without extra sources of power past low levels.

BUt what does a doctor do?  It heals, with mundane means.  Heals things that normally would be a ridiculous notion to be healed....without magic.  Or more literally, there's actually therapies that involve trauma of different sorts to heal.  Chiropractors, electro-shock therapy, accupuncture, massage, etc.  Open your mind to possibilities, and you'll see a number of "magical" things that can be achieved through mundane means.
          See, the problem is - in DnD a 5th level cleric does everything a doctor can do better and faster, while packing a wagon of other abilities. Sure, you can give another character the abilty to heal any wound or cure any disease by 6 seconds of using acupuncture, no problem. But why are you calling this "mundane means" again, if there is nothing mundane about it?

         In fact, I want to ask clearly - what do you want to accomplish by sticking this greatly misleading label to characters? To who, I remind you, you're already attaching the "personal enhancement" them, which already can give people all the wrong ideas about what these characters are supposed to do?
           
Let me put it this way.  Nikola Tesla once claimed he could split the earth in two with nothing more than a few well-timed explosions.  He actually did use the earth as a conductor to create a 130' lightning bolt.  The man was not magical, but he was a genius.  There's a man who can survive in freezing conditions easily and actually climbed Mount Everest wearing nothing but sandals and bike shorts.  There are people who can channel energy through their hands, making them warm to the touch....burning to the touch, actually, and I'm not talking about myths of the Tibetan Monks or something, this is actually documented.  And in real life?  We are level 6 at most, most of us are level 2 or 3 by mid adulthood.  So just imagine what things a true high-level person would be able to do in real life.
         A true high-level person is not a concept from real life. Of course, by definition he will be capable of miracles unthinkable for us. So why call him mundane, again?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 03:25:59 PM by FatR »

Offline FatR

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #86 on: February 07, 2012, 03:24:52 PM »
Sorry, doubled the post accidentally...

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #87 on: February 07, 2012, 04:03:46 PM »
Why call it mundane?  Because it IS mundane!  There's no magic involved!  I think you're confusing "amazing" with "magic".  Or more accurately "mundane" with "boring".  Mundane here is meaning "from a non-magical source".  So using a balance check to fly, because you're walking on gas molecules in the air is mundane.  Yes, mundane.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #88 on: February 07, 2012, 04:21:53 PM »
I wonder if all the balance issues can be traced back to a quirk of the English language. :p

Offline Ziegander

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #89 on: February 07, 2012, 05:10:40 PM »
Why call it mundane?  Because it IS mundane!  There's no magic involved!  I think you're confusing "amazing" with "magic".  Or more accurately "mundane" with "boring".  Mundane here is meaning "from a non-magical source".  So using a balance check to fly, because you're walking on gas molecules in the air is mundane.  Yes, mundane.

C'mon. Walking on gas molecules is physically impossible. FatR is only wondering why you insist on calling things mundane that are physically impossible, which, to be honest, isn't an unfair expectation. It's as ludicrous as people that claim that CĂș Chulainn's warp spasm was "mundane." He transforms into a biologically untenable monster that spews both blood and fire in equal proportions, lives and fights on, and then transforms back. There's nothing mundane about it, so why call it that, especially when it's clearly supernatural. In D&D supernatural abilities and magic are the same thing.

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #90 on: February 07, 2012, 05:31:10 PM »
Just because you've never seen it happen doesn't mean it can't happen.  Yes all of physics tell us that it can't happen, but what if?  I mean, it'll be a mundane method of "flying".  And for the record, I started out with things that aren't only physically possible, but happen all the time.  But that shouldn't matter.  Just because something is amazing and not recognizable by our feeble minds in reality, doesn't mean that it's powered by magic.  A 20th level warblade could just be so awesome that he shrugs off the effects of that paralysis through sheer force of will.  And then goes to slay the dragon and blasts it with air, a burst he created by swinging his sword....or breathing really heavily (think Aang).
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Offline Ziegander

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #91 on: February 07, 2012, 06:09:41 PM »
Dude, if the definition of magic is "stuff that isn't physically possible," then there is no such thing as "a non-magical ability that is physically impossible."

EDIT: Charles Atlas Superpowers can go a long way when combined with theoretical physics, but you're asking for "mundane stuff" to deliver things that are just not physically possible for no reason other than to maintain the illusion of the "purely mundane fantasy hero." Even that sounds like an oxymoron to me.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 06:14:53 PM by Ziegander »

Offline dman11235

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #92 on: February 07, 2012, 06:58:15 PM »
You know, I was actually tying to stay away from that sort of thing.  I mean, you go far enough into it and even magic is governed by natural laws.  They're just different natural laws from what we know.

But my point isn't actually "mundane can do make with mundane means".  My point is that mundane can do more than just "hit it" and "hit it harder".  They can, say, hit it in such a way to blind, or deafen, or knock back, or disrupt the casting/movement/other action, will themselves better, etc.

Skills should be viable at later levels.  Just not to do the same things.
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Offline veekie

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #93 on: February 07, 2012, 07:52:27 PM »
Dude, if the definition of magic is "stuff that isn't physically possible," then there is no such thing as "a non-magical ability that is physically impossible."

EDIT: Charles Atlas Superpowers can go a long way when combined with theoretical physics, but you're asking for "mundane stuff" to deliver things that are just not physically possible for no reason other than to maintain the illusion of the "purely mundane fantasy hero." Even that sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Alternate reading, Magic =/= Spells. Magic can be natural, spells aren't. You see it a lot before the point where the Church became dominant, where the miracles and lore of other faiths became spellcasting, possession and witchcraft.
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Offline Prime32

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« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 07:23:56 PM by Prime32 »

Offline midnight_v

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #95 on: February 19, 2012, 07:12:19 PM »
This seems relevant:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_(weapon)
Wow. Really kinda cool. Reminds me of ... what was that show. . . kid summons his soul-sword from somewhere, gets a half-(evil opponent) mask? Its an anime but yeah reminds me of that.
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Offline Prime32

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #96 on: February 19, 2012, 07:23:01 PM »
Wow. Really kinda cool. Reminds me of ... what was that show. . . kid summons his soul-sword from somewhere, gets a half-(evil opponent) mask? Its an anime but yeah reminds me of that.
Bleach?

The closest thing 3.5 has to astras are the holy sword and hero's blade spells; they're missing the "everyone can learn them" part though.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 07:41:25 PM by Prime32 »

Offline X-Codes

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #97 on: February 19, 2012, 07:38:39 PM »
Wow. Really kinda cool. Reminds me of ... what was that show. . . kid summons his soul-sword from somewhere, gets a half-(evil opponent) mask? Its an anime but yeah reminds me of that.
Bleach?
Probably Bleach.

Also, re:Doctors:
http://www.periodpaper.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/8022f01105bea4edf676ba39d5976c14/O/L/OLD5_206_9.JPG

And that's Victorian era medicine.

Offline midnight_v

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #98 on: February 20, 2012, 09:06:24 AM »
Yeah bleach, obviously. I was running out the house right then. ;)
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Offline Prime32

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Re: The Warrior-Mage: Let's Discuss the Fighter in a High-Magic World.
« Reply #99 on: February 20, 2012, 07:01:07 PM »
Random idea - everyone is highly resistant to physical and magical attacks by default. Hitting someone with a sword damages their magic resistance, and casting spells on them makes them less able to defend themselves against mundane attacks.