[Pathfinder], my god Dazing Spell is incredible

[Phoenix00]

Note I don't play pathfinder though my group does incorporate some of the common sense pathfinders rules such as the skill system.  Because of this I am not intimately familiar with pathfinder like I am traditional 3.5.  Recently I read about this metamagic feat called Dazing Spell, my god is it powerful.

For +3 metamagic it does the following

Dazing Spell (Metamagic)

You can daze creatures with the power of your spells.

Benefit: You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell. A dazing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level. Spells that do not inflict damage do not benefit from this feat.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/advancedFeats.html

No actions, move or standard means you win.  That monster is locked down.  You can even make the save reflex or will or fort if you select the right spell to metamagic up.

So in sum any damaging spell has become a save or lose (might as well be save or die if the spell is 3rd level or higher.)  Most importantly the damaging spell can be a multi target spell, multi target save or lose for only 3 spell levels.

--------------------------------------

So is this completely on the high end power wise?  To me it seems so.

What metamagic reducers are there in a pure pathfinder game?  Besides Magical Lineage trait (you can only have about 2 traits and this only affects 1 spell per trait), universalist wizard (limited times per day, can't go above your normal casting level), spell perfection (not available till 12th level), metamagic rods (14,000 gp on open market, 7,000 if you craft thus not avaliable till level 11 if you buy it or level 9 if you craft it).

--------------------------------------

How high of dc can you easily get in a pure pathfinder game?  Things I know about.

Casting Stat
18 at creation
+2 if right race
+2 to 6 due to magic item
+1 to 5 levels
+5 tome
DC boosters
+1 Spell Focus
+1 Greater Spell Focus
+1 Elemental Focus
+1 Greater Elemental Focus
up to +4 Spell Perfection (if you have spell focus, greater spell focus, elemental focus, greater elemental focus)

--------------------------------------

Now in a pathfinder+wizard books or
pathfinder+wizard books+dragon magazine this feat is beyond broken due to metamagic reducers.

I am curious on your feedback and ways you would power up a build with spells, feats, traits etc based around this metamagic feat.  I am curious on both pathfinder as well as normal d&d

[brujon]

Deadly stones with Dazing Explosive Runes. Chug one and bam, instant SoD.

[Rebel7284]

Sorcers already get Wing of Flurry which are pretty much as effective as a Dazing Spell magic missle both being level 4 and dazing multiple targets for 1 round.  Frost Breath is also available to everyone from a level 2 slot but is a cone which may or may not be optimal.  +3 adjustment seems a bit high with other ways to Daze/Stun/take away actions at higher levels.

Edit: The best use I can think of is adding MORE saves to a save or die spell.  However, twin spell is +4 and may often be more effective as it also doubles the damage.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Best use is on a reflex save spell, since there really aren't many/any reflex save or suck/lose spells at all.  I strongly recommend this feat for exactly that reason in my Witch guide, since they get will save or lose out the ass and quite a bit of fort save or lose by level 10 as well.

Either put it on an area blast spell for instant gratification, or on a spell like Flaming Sphere that you can use to put daze on a new creature each round with.

[X-Codes]

What StreamOfTheSky said.  This + Wall of Fire = lots of dead things.

I wouldn't use this on instantaneous blasty stuff, though.  Even though daze is an awesome condition to inflict on enemies, the save DC is always going to be, at a minimum, 3 off your highest level without metamagic reducers, and I don't think it's particularly worthwhile to grab metamagic reducers with this feat.

[Solo]

What are you talking about? Pathfinder's balanced.

[X-Codes]

What are you talking about? Pathfinder's balanced.

You're not really trolling here, Solo.  Now, if you said something like this on Mythweavers or GitP...

[veekie]

The +3 spell level does put a kink in the DCs being up to scratch though, there should be some metamagic reducers(or extreme DC pumping) going on.

[Ed-Zero]

When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect.

I think that this is the most important part of the spell. It not only states that when they take damage but as long as the spell is still up and dealing damage, they continue to be dazed!

Dazzling Blade is a great one to put on a melee weapon in your party of your choice. Any time they hit the enemy for the next minute, it dazes them for a round? Yes please! If your weapon can beat somethings DR then the enemy is dazed.

Stone Call is another good one. 2d6 damage to every creature inside a 40ft radius for 1 round/level and dazing them every time for no save and no SR is absolutely amazing. This is an instant lockdown. Only thing that's gonna stop this is DR and immunity to magic.

Flaming Sphere is the last of the low level spells that I looked at for the sorc/wiz and is amazing because it can roll through every enemy, deal them damage and is around for 1 round/level. It doesn't hold a candle to Stone Call for AoE or Dazzling Blade for single target incapacitation but it's still pretty cool.

[Ziegander]

When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect.

I think that this is the most important part of the spell. It not only states that when they take damage but as long as the spell is still up and dealing damage, they continue to be dazed!

Dazzling Blade is a great one to put on a melee weapon in your party of your choice. Any time they hit the enemy for the next minute, it dazes them for a round? Yes please! If your weapon can beat somethings DR then the enemy is dazed.

Stone Call is another good one. 2d6 damage to every creature inside a 40ft radius for 1 round/level and dazing them every time for no save and no SR is absolutely amazing. This is an instant lockdown. Only thing that's gonna stop this is DR and immunity to magic.

Flaming Sphere is the last of the low level spells that I looked at for the sorc/wiz and is amazing because it can roll through every enemy, deal them damage and is around for 1 round/level. It doesn't hold a candle to Stone Call for AoE or Dazzling Blade for single target incapacitation but it's still pretty cool.

You're missing a few somethings. What exactly they are I'm not 100% sure of, but Dazing Spell doesn't work at all like you think it does.

1) It doesn't interact with Dazzling Blade at all.

2) Stone call only deals 2d6 damage once, and Dazes for just 2 rounds on a failed save (quote, "If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect.").

3) Flaming Sphere does have the possibility to damage and daze one creature per round, but they still get a Will save to negate the dazing.

[Ed-Zero]

You're missing a few somethings. What exactly they are I'm not 100% sure of, but Dazing Spell doesn't work at all like you think it does.

1) It doesn't interact with Dazzling Blade at all.

2) Stone call only deals 2d6 damage once, and Dazes for just 2 rounds on a failed save (quote, "If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect.").

3) Flaming Sphere does have the possibility to damage and daze one creature per round, but they still get a Will save to negate the dazing.

1) I'm not seeing how it couldn't interact with it, whenever the spell does damage, it dazes. If your hitting something with the blade, it deals the damage, the metamagic goes off and dazes it, no save. The only thing I can see that would stop this is if it's interpreted as the spell itself has to do damage and not as an after-effect.

2) Whoops, I didn't see that it only damages once. Haha.

3) Still, the sphere is good.

Thanks for pointing the problems out.

[Ziegander]

1) I'm not seeing how it couldn't interact with it, whenever the spell does damage, it dazes. If your hitting something with the blade, it deals the damage, the metamagic goes off and dazes it, no save. The only thing I can see that would stop this is if it's interpreted as the spell itself has to do damage and not as an after-effect.

Dazzling Blade doesn't deal damage. Ever. Yes, the weapon that the spell is cast on can deal damage if someone attacks with it, but that has nothing to do with the spell whatsoever. Quote from the feat, "You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell [...]" There isn't any other way to interpret it.

Even if it worked the way you think it does, which it doesn't, then it would still allow a save because of the passage I quoted in my above post, "If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect."

[Phoenix00]

Dazzling Blade is a great one to put on a melee weapon in your party of your choice. Any time they hit the enemy for the next minute, it dazes them for a round? Yes please! If your weapon can beat somethings DR then the enemy is dazed.

Dazzling blade won't work, dazzling blade doesn't damage an opponent it just merely does a debuff when you also hit the enemy with your weapon.  That said spells such as flame arrow should work though.  (Add 1d6 Fire Damage to your ammo)  Now that is what i call an arcane archer    I can think of psionic version of flame arrow for melee weapons but what arcane/divine versions are out there (I am not talking weaponlike spells such as flame blade).

Magic Weapon should also work as well.  You now cause your entire party attacks to cause a will save or be dazed each time the weapon deals damage.

Stone Call is another good one. 2d6 damage to every creature inside a 40ft radius for 1 round/level and dazing them every time for no save and no SR is absolutely amazing. This is an instant lockdown. Only thing that's gonna stop this is DR and immunity to magic.

This is what I am talking about, a 40ft radius is 172 5ft radius squares.  They still have to make a will saving throw, but the amount of area you are controlling at once with a save or lose is incredible.

Those creatures are locked down for 2 rounds (for every round you give up).  You can easily follow up with spells that do damage over time (with another Dazing spell, increasing the duration) but a shorter area, or your allies to mop up.

Flaming Sphere is the last of the low level spells that I looked at for the sorc/wiz and is amazing because it can roll through every enemy, deal them damage and is around for 1 round/level. It doesn't hold a candle to Stone Call for AoE or Dazzling Blade for single target incapacitation but it's still pretty cool.

Damage over time spells are great, since while you won't kill a person instantly with flaming sphere, each time you hit a target they are useless over two rounds.  If you buy time you win, for time is on your side with D&D.

Sorcs already get Wing of Flurry which are pretty much as effective as a Dazing Spell magic missle both being level 4 and dazing multiple targets for 1 round.  Frost Breath is also available to everyone from a level 2 slot but is a cone which may or may not be optimal.  +3 adjustment seems a bit high with other ways to Daze/Stun/take away actions at higher levels.

Wings of flurry is a great spell but it does have three limiting factors.  It is sorc only, and it kinda forces you in melee range since you must be within 30ft of the enemy, and its duration is only 1 round.  Dazing spells may be higher than 5th level but for every level higher the longer the duration, the more actions the enemy loses for every one you gain.

Frost breath is a great spell but once again you have to be close (15ft cone), it damage doesn't grow fast (1d4 for every 2 levels) thus any cold resistance puts an end to it (2 to 8 at level 4 average 5, 3 to 12 at level 6 average 7.5, 4 to 16 at level 8 average 10, etc).  Finally its duration is only 1 round. 

[Ziegander]

That said spells such as flame arrow should work though.  (Add 1d6 Fire Damage to your ammo)  Now that is what i call an arcane archer    I can think of psionic version of flame arrow for melee weapons but what arcane/divine versions are out there (I am not talking weaponlike spells such as flame blade).

Magic Weapon should also work as well.  You now cause your entire party attacks to cause a will save or be dazed each time the weapon deals damage.

Strictly speaking, no, spells like Flame Arrow and Magic Weapon do not work with Dazing Spell. Again, the spells themselves do not deal damage, only the weapons that the spells are cast on. That the spells modify the damage of those weapons is irrelevant. I think most DMs, myself included, would allow spells like Flame Blade to work with Dazing Spell, but I can see why some DMs might not rule that way (because the effect of the spell isn't to deal damage, but rather the creation of a magic weapon that itself deals damage).

[Ed-Zero]

That said spells such as flame arrow should work though.  (Add 1d6 Fire Damage to your ammo)  Now that is what i call an arcane archer    I can think of psionic version of flame arrow for melee weapons but what arcane/divine versions are out there (I am not talking weaponlike spells such as flame blade).

Magic Weapon should also work as well.  You now cause your entire party attacks to cause a will save or be dazed each time the weapon deals damage.

Strictly speaking, no, spells like Flame Arrow and Magic Weapon do not work with Dazing Spell. Again, the spells themselves do not deal damage, only the weapons that the spells are cast on. That the spells modify the damage of those weapons is irrelevant. I think most DMs, myself included, would allow spells like Flame Blade to work with Dazing Spell, but I can see why some DMs might not rule that way (because the effect of the spell isn't to deal damage, but rather the creation of a magic weapon that itself deals damage).

Well, it's a difference of adding damage to the strike rather than dealing it. If the creature ends up getting hit and takes full damage plus the one from magic weapon, then yeah, it would deal damage and looks like it is viable for dazing...

[Ziegander]

That said spells such as flame arrow should work though.  (Add 1d6 Fire Damage to your ammo)  Now that is what i call an arcane archer    I can think of psionic version of flame arrow for melee weapons but what arcane/divine versions are out there (I am not talking weaponlike spells such as flame blade).

Magic Weapon should also work as well.  You now cause your entire party attacks to cause a will save or be dazed each time the weapon deals damage.

Strictly speaking, no, spells like Flame Arrow and Magic Weapon do not work with Dazing Spell. Again, the spells themselves do not deal damage, only the weapons that the spells are cast on. That the spells modify the damage of those weapons is irrelevant. I think most DMs, myself included, would allow spells like Flame Blade to work with Dazing Spell, but I can see why some DMs might not rule that way (because the effect of the spell isn't to deal damage, but rather the creation of a magic weapon that itself deals damage).

Well, it's a difference of adding damage to the strike rather than dealing it. If the creature ends up getting hit and takes full damage plus the one from magic weapon, then yeah, it would deal damage and looks like it is viable for dazing...

Nope. When you attack with a Magic Weapon enhanced Longsword, the attack is resolved by the Longsword dealing 1d8+1 damage, not by the Longsword dealing 1d8 damage and the Magic Weapon spell dealing 1 damage. The Longsword is dealing all of the damage, and because of that, Dazing Spell can't apply.

Flame Arrow works in a very similar way. To quote the spell, "Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits." The ammunition deals the fire damage, not the spell, and thus Dazing Spell unfortunately doesn't work here either.

[Ed-Zero]

Nope. When you attack with a Magic Weapon enhanced Longsword, the attack is resolved by the Longsword dealing 1d8+1 damage, not by the Longsword dealing 1d8 damage and the Magic Weapon spell dealing 1 damage. The Longsword is dealing all of the damage, and because of that, Dazing Spell can't apply.

Flame Arrow works in a very similar way. To quote the spell, "Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits." The ammunition deals the fire damage, not the spell, and thus Dazing Spell unfortunately doesn't work here either.

I get how you're saying it's resolved but without the Magic Weapon spell, it wouldn't be getting the +1 damage, so where is that coming from then?

[Ziegander]

Nope. When you attack with a Magic Weapon enhanced Longsword, the attack is resolved by the Longsword dealing 1d8+1 damage, not by the Longsword dealing 1d8 damage and the Magic Weapon spell dealing 1 damage. The Longsword is dealing all of the damage, and because of that, Dazing Spell can't apply.

Flame Arrow works in a very similar way. To quote the spell, "Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits." The ammunition deals the fire damage, not the spell, and thus Dazing Spell unfortunately doesn't work here either.

I get how you're saying it's resolved but without the Magic Weapon spell, it wouldn't be getting the +1 damage, so where is that coming from then?

From the enhancement bonus granted to the Longsword by the spell. It's like the saying "guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people." We don't put a gun on trial or execute it for murder. Neither does Dazing Spell add a save-or-be Dazed effect to a Magic Weapon spell. I'm not saying that the gun had nothing to do with the murder, nor that the Magic Weapon spell had nothing to do with the damage dealt. What I am saying is that Magic Weapon does not deal damage. In order to qualify for the Dazing Spell feat, a spell has to deal damage, and Magic Weapon doesn't. To put it another way, "Magic Weapon doesn't damage creatures, weapons with Magic Weapon cast on them damage creatures."

[Ed-Zero]

Nope. When you attack with a Magic Weapon enhanced Longsword, the attack is resolved by the Longsword dealing 1d8+1 damage, not by the Longsword dealing 1d8 damage and the Magic Weapon spell dealing 1 damage. The Longsword is dealing all of the damage, and because of that, Dazing Spell can't apply.

Flame Arrow works in a very similar way. To quote the spell, "Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits." The ammunition deals the fire damage, not the spell, and thus Dazing Spell unfortunately doesn't work here either.

I get how you're saying it's resolved but without the Magic Weapon spell, it wouldn't be getting the +1 damage, so where is that coming from then?

From the enhancement bonus granted to the Longsword by the spell. It's like the saying "guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people." We don't put a gun on trial or execute it for murder. Neither does Dazing Spell add a save-or-be Dazed effect to a Magic Weapon spell. I'm not saying that the gun had nothing to do with the murder, nor that the Magic Weapon spell had nothing to do with the damage dealt. What I am saying is that Magic Weapon does not deal damage. In order to qualify for the Dazing Spell feat, a spell has to deal damage, and Magic Weapon doesn't. To put it another way, "Magic Weapon doesn't damage creatures, weapons with Magic Weapon cast on them damage creatures."

and yet the gun is confiscated when the person is arrested. That's like saying you don't arrest magic users who kill people with spells, you arrest the spells they use.

what I'm saying is the spell deals that one damage when you swing your weapon by giving it the +1 enhancement bonus. It doesn't matter if it's coming from enhancement bonus or not, it just matters that the extra damage is coming from a spell, which it is.

[Ziegander]

That's like saying you don't arrest magic users who kill people with spells, you arrest the spells they use.

*facepalm

No, it's like saying you arrest magic users who kill people with spells and you don't arrest their spells. Because that would be stupid and impossible.

what I'm saying is the spell deals that one damage when you swing your weapon by giving it the +1 enhancement bonus. It doesn't matter if it's coming from enhancement bonus or not, it just matters that the extra damage is coming from a spell, which it is.

No. The damage is NOT coming from the spell.

Take a look at the same situation from a totally different perspective. A Bard uses Inspire Courage on his allies, granting the party +1 to attack and damage rolls, and +1 to saves vs Fear. His ally the Fighter (with Str 10) attacks with his Longsword for 1d8+1 damage. Without Inspire Courage, the Fighter would only deal 1d8 damage with his Longsword attack. Does this mean that the Bard is dealing 1 damage every time the Fighter hits? Alternatively, does it mean that the Inspire Courage effect is dealing 1 damage? The answer to both questions is, obviously, no, and hopefully this scenario illustrates my point about Magic Weapon.