[Pathfinder], my god Dazing Spell is incredible

[Jackinthegreen]

Then why is it Flame Arrow wouldn't work?  The damage is clearly listed in the spell description.  The fire damage is the spell working, period.

[Ed-Zero]

No. The damage is NOT coming from the spell.

Take a look at the same situation from a totally different perspective. A Bard uses Inspire Courage on his allies, granting the party +1 to attack and damage rolls, and +1 to saves vs Fear. His ally the Fighter (with Str 10) attacks with his Longsword for 1d8+1 damage. Without Inspire Courage, the Fighter would only deal 1d8 damage with his Longsword attack. Does this mean that the Bard is dealing 1 damage every time the Fighter hits? Alternatively, does it mean that the Inspire Courage effect is dealing 1 damage? The answer to both questions is, obviously, no, and hopefully this scenario illustrates my point about Magic Weapon.

wat.

How is the damage not considered to be coming from the spell? If he has a weapon that does 1d8 damage then that's all fine and dandy but as soon as he puts this spell on his weapon it now does an extra point of damage.

Once again:

Without: 1d8
With: 1d8+1

What part of that shows that the spell does not modify damage in any way? If you can find it then please show me.

[Ziegander]

To quote the spell, "Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits." The ammunition deals the fire damage, not the spell, and thus Dazing Spell unfortunately doesn't work here either.

Bolded for relevance. Flame Arrow is the same sort of effect as Magic Weapon. It doesn't deal any damage. It makes a weapon deal more damage.

Note, it wouldn't be a Bad Thing^TM necessarily to rule that Magic Weapon and Flame Arrow and similar spells that enhance weapon attacks are eligible for the Dazing Spell feat, I'm just pointing out that technically they aren't, and I don't think that was the intent of the designers of the Dazing Spell feat either.

[Ziegander]

What part of that shows that the spell does not modify damage in any way? If you can find it then please show me.

You are being intensely obtuse.

I did not say that the spell does not modify the weapon's damage. In fact, that is, by definition, what the spell does. What the spell does not do is what it needs to do to qualify for the Dazing Spell feat. Let's quote the damn feat once more with feeling:

Dazing Spell

You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell.

Magic Weapon does not deal damage to a creature. A weapon that Magic Weapon has been cast on deals damage to creatures if it hits. For some reason you are refusing to acknowledge the difference. If the damage were dealt separately, as you insist, then, among many other issues, that 1 damage from Magic Weapon would ignore DR because DR doesn't prevent magic damage. But Magic Weapon doesn't deal 1 damage. It adds an enhancement bonus.

If Magic Weapon read, "when the weapon hits, Magic Weapon deals 1 damage to the struck creature," then, yes, it would be eligible for Dazing Spell. But, no, an enhancement bonus to weapon damage means that the enhanced weapon deals that much more damage each time it hits. It doesn't matter what the hell adds that bonus, the weapon is the one dealing that extra damage, not the external effect that granted it.

[Jackinthegreen]

"Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits."  How different is that from "when the weapon hits, Flame Arrow deals 1d6 fire damage to the struck creature?"  The weapon could not deal the extra damage if it didn't have the external effect.  Thus, the external effect is doing the damage.

Here's a question then, how would you rule it working with Claws of the Beast?

[Ziegander]

"Each piece of ammunition deals an extra 1d6 points of fire damage to any target it hits."  How different is that from "when the weapon hits, Flame Arrow deals 1d6 fire damage to the struck creature?"  The weapon could not deal the extra damage if it didn't have the external effect.  Thus, the external effect is doing the damage.

You're right, it isn't all that different. And with a slight wording change the spell would be eligible for Dazing Spell. But that's just not how the spell is written. You are essentially trying to prove that the spell itself is lying to you. Flame Arrow literally spells it out for you that the ammunition deals the fire damage and you want to prove that, no, it's got it all wrong, that you know what's really happening.

Here's a question then, would you allow Flame Arrow to be Empowered?

Yes, but I don't see how that has anything to do with the discussion about Dazing Spell. Flame Arrow does have a variable, numeric effect. That does not suddenly prove that it deals damage.

Here's a question then, how would you rule it working with Claws of the Beast?

If you mean the psionic power, then, again, Dazing Spell doesn't work with it at all. If you mean something else, please elaborate. I'm not even sure how you would apply a metamagic feat to a psionic power in the first place, but presuming there is a way, that power grants you natural weapons. If you hit with those weapons, then you are dealing damage, not the power. This should be pretty elementary...

[Jackinthegreen]

If you mean the psionic power, then, again, Dazing Spell doesn't work with it at all. If you mean something else, please elaborate. I'm not even sure how you would apply a metamagic feat to a psionic power in the first place, but presuming there is a way, that power grants you natural weapons. If you hit with those weapons, then you are dealing damage, not the power. This should be pretty elementary...

I'm referring to the Druid/Ranger spell at http://dndtools.eu/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/claws-of-the-beast--1747/.  Or if you want to see it in the book, Magic of Faerun page 84.  The interpretation I'm arguing is that because the effect wouldn't exist without the spell, the effect essentially is the spell.  The spell does damage because the claws do damage.  Anyone using Detect Magic on you will see those claws glowing.

Let's just boil it down though.  At its core, the spell creates an effect and that effect deals damage.  Fireball is the same way.  Cast the spell, it creates a fireball, and that fireball deals damage.  Cast a spell to create claws, and those claws deal damage.  Cast a spell to create flames on arrows, and those flames deal damage.

[Ziegander]

If you mean the psionic power, then, again, Dazing Spell doesn't work with it at all. If you mean something else, please elaborate. I'm not even sure how you would apply a metamagic feat to a psionic power in the first place, but presuming there is a way, that power grants you natural weapons. If you hit with those weapons, then you are dealing damage, not the power. This should be pretty elementary...

I'm referring to the Druid/Ranger spell at http://dndtools.eu/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/claws-of-the-beast--1747/.  Or if you want to see it in the book, Magic of Faerun page 84.  The interpretation I'm arguing is that because the effect wouldn't exist without the spell, the effect essentially is the spell.  The spell does damage because the claws do damage.  Anyone using Detect Magic on you will see those claws glowing.

Let's just boil it down though.  At its core, the spell creates an effect and that effect deals damage.  Fireball is the same way.  Cast the spell, it creates a fireball, and that fireball deals damage.  Cast a spell to create claws, and those claws deal damage.  Cast a spell to create flames on arrows, and those flames deal damage.

And what I'm saying is, that interpretation is not supported by any rules, and is, in fact, contradicted by them in many cases. Interpret the spells and the feat how you like and in what ways you feel make the most sense.

[skydragonknight]

Dazing Black Tentacles would be pretty good. Dazing Fire Shield (cold version) would work as wel, since cold spells get the most DC boost options.

[Rebel7284]

Sorcs already get Wing of Flurry which are pretty much as effective as a Dazing Spell magic missle both being level 4 and dazing multiple targets for 1 round.  Frost Breath is also available to everyone from a level 2 slot but is a cone which may or may not be optimal.  +3 adjustment seems a bit high with other ways to Daze/Stun/take away actions at higher levels.

Wings of flurry is a great spell but it does have three limiting factors.  It is sorc only, and it kinda forces you in melee range since you must be within 30ft of the enemy, and its duration is only 1 round.  Dazing spells may be higher than 5th level but for every level higher the longer the duration, the more actions the enemy loses for every one you gain.

Frost breath is a great spell but once again you have to be close (15ft cone), it damage doesn't grow fast (1d4 for every 2 levels) thus any cold resistance puts an end to it (2 to 8 at level 4 average 5, 3 to 12 at level 6 average 7.5, 4 to 16 at level 8 average 10, etc).  Finally its duration is only 1 round.

How many actions do you NEED your opponents to lose to win?

The main point of my argument is that at past 5th level, there are too many ways to accomplish taking away actions to justify taking the feat to me. 

Frost Breath is a 30 foot cone in my Spell Compendium.  The damage is fairly low, but a) the damage is a lot less important than the action economy. b) The damage is still higher than the Dazing Spell Magic Missile  at least assuming we aim at more than one target. c) We're still talking about a level 2 spell which is 4 character levels before you can start doing the Dazing Spell Magic Missile thing and 6 character levels before you can get get a 2-round daze.

[Phoenix00]

How many actions do you NEED your opponents to lose to win?

Depends on the situation 

The main point of my argument is that at past 5th level, there are too many ways to accomplish taking away actions to justify taking the feat to me. 

Frost Breath is a 30 foot cone in my Spell Compendium.  The damage is fairly low, but a) the damage is a lot less important than the action economy. b) The damage is still higher than the Dazing Spell Magic Missile  at least assuming we aim at more than one target. c) We're still talking about a level 2 spell which is 4 character levels before you can start doing the Dazing Spell Magic Missile thing and 6 character levels before you can get get a 2-round daze.

My point about the damage is that for frost breath daze effect to work you must be fail the reflex save and take actual damage from the spell.  1d4/2 levels (max 5d4) to a a common cold resist, means a lot of times frost breath won't work, it only needs 1 damage to force the save, but it is not guaranteed.

I am agreeing that frost breath is a great spell, it is not without some flaws which some higher level spells with dazing spell will rectify.  That said they take higher level slots.  Of course there is a trade off.
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This feat may not work well with a normal spellcaster who may only want to prepare 1 or 2 spells that use this feat.  In that situation I would just recommend the spellcaster get a metamagic rod instead.

It is easily though to optimize for a spellcaster who wants to specialize based on this feat though.  A spellcaster who is going to have metamagic reducers and higher save dcs.  A build that may have a couple different spells prepared based on this feat, different spells due to different situations

• reflex save
• will save
• fort save

• Close range
• Medium range
• Long range

• Small area/small amount of targets
• Large area/large amount of targets

• instantaneous duration
• damage over time

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Wall of Deadly Chains (Book of Vile Darkness, Sorc/Wizard 4) seems to be a great spell for this feat, it does a flat 3d6 damage per round, this damage can't be resisted (like you can do with elemental damage) and this damage is over time (mins/level) so the daze effect is going to repeat.

Your wall is 5ft per caster level.  And the damaging parts reach out every 5ft.

Only limitation is that you can't create a wall in the same space as an existing creature 

[X-Codes]

Dazing Black Tentacles would be pretty good. Dazing Fire Shield (cold version) would work as wel, since cold spells get the most DC boost options.

Except Black Tentacles sucks in PF.  Fire Shield is a nice one, but I don't like the spell given that you're being hit to deal the damage.  Also, that same level has Wall of Fire.  A couple levels up you get Sirocco, and IMO a Dazing Sirocco might just be worth a 9th-level slot.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, Dazing Sirroco is definitely a cool combo, though I'd want to change the energy type and PF nerfed Energy Substitution (their version costs +1 spell level.  wtf?).

I'd also like to point out how awesome Dazing Spell works with Persistent Spell.  Perhaps get persistent on a rod.  A Dazing Flaming sphere takes a 5th level slot and could be buffed with a lesser meta rod of Persistent Spell for fairly cheap.
Along the same veins of Flaming Sphere, take note of the Ball Lightning spell.  4th level is still not that high, and this will let you hit multiple creatures with daze each round.

(click to show/hide)

You create two globes of lightning that fly in whichever direction you indicate. For every 4 caster levels above 7th, you create an additional globe of lightning (3 globes at 11th, 4 globes at 15th, to the maximum of 5 globes at 19th). These globes fly at a rate of 20 feet per round and have perfect maneuverability. Wind does not affect a flying sphere's course.
 
If a globe enters a space with a creature, it stops moving for the round and deals 3d6 points of electricity damage to that creature, though a successful Reflex save negates the damage. Creatures wearing metal armor take a -4 penalty on this Saving Throw.
 
Each globe moves as long as you actively direct it (it's a move action for you to direct all the spheres created by a single casting of this spell); otherwise they stay at rest. These globes have no mass and cannot push aside unwilling creatures or move solid objects. A ball lightning globe winks out if it exceeds the spell's range.

[Phoenix00]

Firebrand (Spell Compedium) is incredible with dazing spell metamagic (and if you use searing spell as well so you make sure no one is fire immune.)  I am summarizing the spell below

Wiz/Sorc 5, Medium Range (so 200ft range at CL 10), 1 5ft burst for every caster level (thus 20 bursts at 20 CL), reflex save for half
Each burst does 9d6 fire damage at CL 9 or 10d6 fire damage at CL 10.
In addition if a creature is hit when the spell goes off he receives 4d6 fire damage at CL 9 or 5d6 fire damage at CL 10 the following round in damage.
If a creature enters the area of a burst within 1 round of the spell going off he receives 4d6 fire damage at CL 9 or 5d6 fire damage at CL 10.
Material Cost 20gp

So combine with Daze Spell and you can pretty much hit every target you want to on the battlefield and be selective about the targets you do not want to hit.  The targets that are hit are dazed for 5 rounds.

Yes this will be an 8th level slot, but this is practically a guaranteed combat ender.  Or you can use a metamagic rod that will cost 54,000 gp on open market (available after level 16), 27,000 gp if crafted (available after level 11).
----------------------

Human Race, Level 13 build, wizard
Traits: None used

Feats
1 Spell Focus Evocation
Human 1 Greater Spell Focus Evocation
3 Elemental Focus Fire
5 Greater Elemental Focus Fire
Wizard 5 Searing Spell (metamagic feat from Sandstorm
7 Dazing Spell
9 Persistent Spell (pathfinder version)
Wizard 10 Heighten Spell
11 Prefered Spell Firebrand
13  Spell Perfection Firebrand

So at level 13 your Save DC is
10 base
+5 Spell Level
(you can cast 7th level spells, but I am assumming a normal 5th level slot)
+your ability modifier I am assumming a 26 int thus a+8
(17 int+2 human, +3 levels, +4 item which you will upgrade around level 14 to 15)
+1 spell focus
+1 greater spell focus
+1 elemental focus
+1 greater elemental focus
+4 spell perfection
=23+Int or a save dc of 31 assumming 26 int

So every monster with a reflex save of 11 or less will automatically fail unless they roll a natural 20.  The average reflex monster of cr 11 is 10, cr 12 is 9, cr 13 is 10, cr 14 is 11, cr 15 is 12, etc

Lastily you don't need to prepare any firebrand per day.  You can spontaneously cast it due to prefered spell.  So prepare other spells for utility, and when they are not useful sack them for firebrand which is pretty much a combat ender.  When you do cast firebrand it it is only a level 5 spell and you are high enough level you can cast level 7 spells.  If you are a universalist you have 4 level 5 slots per day, 3 level 6 slots per day, and 2 level slots per day.  Face enemies with fire resistance, will throw on a searing spell for a 6th level slot, or if the enemy has a high save dc throw on a persistent spell so he must save again.