Author Topic: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA  (Read 7358 times)

Offline wotmaniac

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Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« on: January 29, 2012, 10:41:06 PM »
So, a while back, I was thinking about how Complete Psion nerfed the shit out of Astral Construct -- namely, saying that you can only have 1 AC in effect at any given time.  When I first came across that several years ago, I was like "that's bullshit -- I'll just ignore that little bit".

However, I've recently been thinking that maybe it's not such a bad idea .... and started to apply that kind of thinking to AC's arcane and divine cousins, Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally.

So, my question is this:  how big a deal would this be?

Offline dman11235

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 10:52:39 PM »
Hmm, I don't know, I don't think it woudl work as well as hoped, but I like the basic idea.  I think that you'd need a less descreet method of casting than traditoinal spells use in order for it to work well, something like psionics (where you can alter power on the fly better than spells) or some sort of at-will thing (binder comes to mind).  But you would definitely need to make sure that the creature is worth the action and the resources, somthing I think those spells lack right now, if you only had one creature out at a time, baring specific cricumstances.
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2012, 10:59:18 PM »
Just to clarify:
I'm not necessarily saying only having just 1 creature out at a time .... e.g., if you wanted to use SNA3 to summon 1d4+1 wolves would be fine, but casting another SNA would end the first one.

or whatever.
Okay, I'm running late for work now. 

Offline dman11235

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2012, 11:02:51 PM »
Ah, sorry.  Well, I'm not a fan of the spells to begin with, but I mean (thought of this just now, actually), how often do you cast more than one at a time anyways?  Same with AC?
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Offline veekie

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2012, 11:21:03 PM »
For both, no major change really, unless you were aiming to completely replace your party, you don't even cast different leveled versions twice, because of low duration(rounds) and high casting time(also round)
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Offline dman11235

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2012, 11:28:06 PM »
So yeah, you tend to only have one up at once anyways, I don't see this changing much.  I think part of the backlash against AC might have been "what, now they're telling us we CAN'T do that now?".  I'd be curious to see how useful we can make a single AC in typical battle.  If it ends up being about average usefulness, then that should be good reason to keep it at only one at a time.  Maybe alter it to allow more than one construct with a manifestation, by spending extra PP.

EDIT: do note that summoned creatures can be affected by Magic Circle against Evil, while astral constructs are not.
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Offline veekie

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2012, 11:44:03 PM »
^^
Making one manifestation last longer would go miles further(especially for utility, luggage, etc) than allowing you to get more ACs. PPs don't grow on trees you know.
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Offline spacemonkey555

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2012, 11:58:50 PM »
Don't nerf malconvokers, they gave up a caster level for that  :shakefist

Offline veekie

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2012, 12:35:51 AM »
Malconvokers still get their extra and extra powerful summons(its generated from the same spell silly). They're pretty close to party replacement capability as it is anyway.
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2012, 09:50:23 AM »
not only that, but their real schtick comes form [Calling] spells anyway.

As to Magic Circle against Evil -- the higher level ones have the SR to ignore that, and it's irrelevant to SNA.
By the same token, IIRC, AC is subject to dismissal/banishment.

I just hate inconsistency.  I was at a point of reconciling this particular inconsistency, I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something or going overboard.

Oh, btw -- in my experience, with proper investment, astral construct can do almost as good a job at replacing the fighter as an animal companion.  I had a psion in the party once that regularly wreaked all kinds of havoc all over my game with astral constructs (this was pre-Complete Psion).  just sayin'.

but yeah, the tantrums that accompanied the CPsion nerf was indeed from the "give, then take away".  If it had been nerfed in its original version, I doubt that there would have been any issues (except for maybe some jealousy over other summons having no such limit)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 09:53:34 AM by wotmaniac »

Offline dman11235

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2012, 09:55:54 AM »
AC is a construct, not an outsider, so nothing that affects those, such as banishment and dismissal, affect it.  I did misspeak though, it's Protection from Evil that forces all summoned creatures to save or not be able to attack the target of the spell.  Magic Circle just acts like Protection.  And I'm not sure of many SM or SNA that have SR.

EDIT: so the level 9 and 8 version of SM have a few with SR, but not all of them by far.  That one's dependent on the summoned creature.  Regardless, they are still affected by the spells, while AC is not, was my point.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 09:58:57 AM by dman11235 »
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Offline Agita

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2012, 10:04:15 AM »
It's basically as you say - the main reason the CPsi nerf on Astral Construct (and the general Metacreativity nerf) is bullshit is because the same doesn't apply to equivalent spells, and therefore reeks of kneejerking and catering to the "Psionics is broken" crowd. There shouldn't be a problem with applying the same to equivalent Conjuration spells, just make it consistent - either it applies to both, or to neither.
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2012, 10:12:46 AM »
AC is a construct, not an outsider, so nothing that affects those, such as banishment and dismissal, affect it.  I did misspeak though, it's Protection from Evil that forces all summoned creatures to save or not be able to attack the target of the spell.  Magic Circle just acts like Protection.  And I'm not sure of many SM or SNA that have SR.

EDIT: so the level 9 and 8 version of SM have a few with SR, but not all of them by far.  That one's dependent on the summoned creature.  Regardless, they are still affected by the spells, while AC is not, was my point.
oops -- my bad.  For some reason, I was thinking that PfE didn't work on all summons -- yeah, I missed the boat on that one.
had long night at work, and I'm on auto-pilot for the moment.
For some reason I was thinking that AC might be subject to those 2 spells by virtue of being Astral splooge (i.e., brought from the astral plane) -- I haven't read it in a while, so my memory is slipping.

for the record, there are quite a few creatures on the SM list that have the fiendish/celestial template (which gives SR 5+HD); as well as some individual creatures that out-right have it (ice devil comes immediately to mind).
Since, in my experience, PfE is normally in the form of a worn magic item, the caster level is usually pretty low in order to minimize costs.  makes that crappy SR actually not so crappy.


@ Agita:
good call.  one of my little side-projects is a re-write/overhaul of spells in my own attempt at rebalancing the classes.
I'm just not looking forward to the tantrum that is sure to ensue from my one player who loves casters (he actually believes that wizards don't get enough, especially at high levels :twitch)

Offline dman11235

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2012, 11:38:45 AM »
True

Your player is actually correct!  Wizards do not get enough at high levels, sorcerers even more so!  It's jsut that the class feature they get at level 1 (spells) scales ridiculously well with level and is overpowered.  You're going to want to adress how badly the classes are designed too.
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Offline Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2012, 04:49:33 PM »
Linked Power allows you to manifest two constructs at the same time, if you want, and the Constructor PrC explicitly allows multiple constructs with a single manifestation (and multiple ones can be really really really useful if you're clever). There's also Quicken and Twin, but those are over-costed for the effect.

I've told this story before, but one time I played a blue goblin (at LA 0; they're not worth  more) shaper/constructor//factotum, and I used the Astral Construct power more than anything but Time Hop, because it was so varied and useful in so many situations. I made use of ways to expand my constructs' durations (there's a feat in Hyperconscious that you can take at level 3 that makes your constructs last for 10 minutes, which can be PsyRef'd out once you have enough levels in Constructor, and Extend Power is awesome with it). I also used Linked Power to manifest AC as a standard/move/swift/immediate action for the cost of 1 pp (as well as chronocharms, and a few other ways).

But anyway, I was the toolbox/skillmonkey of the group, and I was always manifesting AC to extend my utility even further. I used them as doorstops, mobile walls, mobile hands, and mobile weapons platforms. I used them to grab allies, opponents, and unattended objects and move them around (having flight and swim speeds is useful, and being able to re-position allies on the battlefield outside of their turns can be very nice indeed). I often positioned them (and boxes, wagons, and other debris) to block and corral movement, to flank, to threaten areas of movement, as mobile soft cover, to pull vehicles or clear areas of debris, and made full use of their size/speed/reach. They're immune to tons of things (being nonliving constructs), and what they aren't immune to usually doesn't matter, since they're disposable.

There was one mass battle where I rode on a flying construct way above the battlefield and used it as soft cover while I created energy walls, constructs to bull-rush enemies into them and prevent them from moving out of the area by dint of there being REALLY BIG LUMPS OF ANIMATED GOO in the way. I found ways to boost the hell out of my manifester level (and reduce my manifesting costs) and could create 9th level constructs at quite low levels. I'd give them Energy Bolt, which they would use whenever we were faced with a long hallway, a bridge, or some other narrow space. Concussion Blast was useful when we were facing large numbers of incorporeal creatures. Extra attacks, rend, and other ways of getting more offense for little cost. Since my constructs lasted for 1/3 of an hour or more, I often let them borrow magic items to use. If the party had a spare belt of giant's strength (and this kind of thing happened frequently), I'd have a construct with a higher Str score than normal. If we had spare magic weapons that gave capabilities beyond what a slam attack could achieve, I'd let the construct eat the -4 to hit to use it (things like spell-storing and dispelling weapons).

They also have access to certain options that no character in his right mind would take (such as Whirlwind Attack), for when you need the exact right thing right now.

A little bit of optimization and thinking outside the box can turn astral constructs from decent disposable minions into walking Swiss army knives of destruction.

The best part was when the BBEG of the campaign sent her ~CR 33 shadow dragon dracolich to goblin-nap my character (at level 16). I pulled a level 9 construct out of my pp reserve, and it missed on its attempts to grapple the thing. It managed to paralyze me on the first round, right after it failed its save on the cleric's casting of Blindness (and was thus blind). I knew what the dragon was there for (since I'd previously gotten threats of such from the BBEG), so I had my big construct grab me and take off into the forest. I had it stuff my body under some leaf-litter right outside of blindsight range, and started manifesting tons of level 1 constructs, shaped just like me, and once the dragon caught up it started making grabs for the small constructs, not knowing which one was me (protip: none of them). Since there was a virtual swarm of them, the DM allowed them to act as an actual swarm, and they Aided Another on the big construct to grapple and pin the thing until the party arrived to grind it into bone-meal.

Alas, the BBEG was rather upset that her most powerful minion was beaten back by a level 16 upstart and his friends (which shouldn't have been able to actually do so by any stretch of the imagination, assuming you're not familiar with the tier list, anyway).

I love having customizable disposable vegan meatshields.

Good times.

@WotManiac: If you don't mind psions remaining high-tier, you can always use my psionic powers revision. I buffed a lot of the really crappy powers, turned a number of level 1 powers into level 0 Talents, and tried to close up a ton of loopholes and broken combos (or just broken uses of the powers in general), and tried to curb the things that tend to give DMs headaches, such as teleportation -- they're likely still tier 2, though there's less breakability (I hope). I actually INCREASED their flexibility in numerous ways, and improved their ability to avoid running out of power points (as well as their need to nova) in a few ways. I lowered the levels on some power effects and added a ton of new powers. I've gotten some good feedback regarding it, and only a bit of negative criticism (much of which was based on a flawed understanding of the system anyway).

Additional comments and suggestions are welcome!

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2012, 06:26:51 PM »
... I've told this story before, but one time I played ...

... I love having customizable disposable vegan meatshields ...

(goes grab some popcorn, and puts on some romantic Illithid music)
 :D
Tell it again Lyca (?!)



The 1 at a time nerf, feels like a proto-4e rules test drive.

Old psi-board came up with Earth Elementals as an equivalent.
Locked in with a 1st level power, instead of higher "spell" levels,
is weak in certain obvious occasions.

Although, the jumping into the AC to use it as armor is rather T.O.-ish, eh  :smirk
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Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2012, 10:42:40 PM »
Wow Lyca -- you're the shiznit.
I just downloaded that, and will probably get around to looking it over in the next couple of days.  Hopefully it saves me a bunch of work.  Thanks.

Offline Lycanthromancer

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2012, 08:39:54 PM »
Wow Lyca -- you're the shiznit.
I just downloaded that, and will probably get around to looking it over in the next couple of days.  Hopefully it saves me a bunch of work.  Thanks.
Call me Lycan, if you  please.

You too, A_DMG.

Otherwise I might have to take...steps.*

Also, again, if you have ANY suggestions on ways to fill up the gaps in the power list, let me know. I really want more input.







*I'll put my left foot in, and take my left foot out, and put my left foot in, then I'll shake it all about.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 08:41:50 PM by Lycanthromancer »

Offline wotmaniac

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2012, 12:10:09 AM »
Call me Lycan, if you  please.
:blush  got it.

Quote
Otherwise I might have to take...steps.*
*I'll put my left foot in, and take my left foot out, and put my left foot in, then I'll shake it all about.
Just make sure that you take it back out before you start hokey-pokeying.


Quote
Also, again, if you have ANY suggestions on ways to fill up the gaps in the power list, let me know. I really want more input.
will do.

Offline awaken_D_M_golem

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Re: Astral Construct -vs- SM/SNA
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2012, 07:37:03 PM »
Wow Lyca -- you're the shiznit.
I just downloaded that, and will probably get around to looking it over in the next couple of days.  Hopefully it saves me a bunch of work.  Thanks.
Call me Lycan, if you  please.

You too, A_DMG.


Otherwise I might have to take...steps.*
Also, again, if you have ANY suggestions on ways to fill up the gaps in the power list, let me know. I really want more input.
*I'll put my left foot in, and take my left foot out, and put my left foot in, then I'll shake it all about.
... umm ... could you take your left foot back out , please ?


It's just an "n" sir.
No I'll burst.
It's just a little "n" , sir ?!
Oh, all right.

(monty python reference)
Your codpiece is a mimic.