Author Topic: The "teamwork invalidates optimization," or "Suck Like Me" Fallacy  (Read 18739 times)

Offline McBeardly

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2012, 08:38:53 AM »
This also leads to such gems as justifying a bad class not being bad because it is a "team game". For instance a monk's role in a team is "not consuming resources". It seems that they manufacture roles for bad classes rather than actually considering the roles in a party first then slotting the classes into them.

Offline Tiltowait

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2012, 09:29:21 AM »
The main thing though is that the people that invoke this fallacy don't realize you have to contribute to a team to be a part of it.

Said people are using it to try and get away with deliberately making their characters as weak as possible. This is the opposite of teamwork.

I think they do, and that's what's bothering them.

If they didn't mind not contributing and just wanted to hang around, then they wouldn't mind if some other character was doing their job better.

The issue is with guys that want to make a contribution, but are too lazy/ignorant of game mechanics to make a character that's really able to do so in the context of a given game. So they find it easier to bitch until everyone gets down to their level of (in)competence

In that case they do and are denying it. They'll stubbornly insist that they're all about teamwork and making strong characters means you want to solo everything and so forth. But none of that is true at all, both because they're not helping the group and because strong characters do help the group even if they are just doing their own thing and especially if they are actively working with the other party members.

At the same time they will adamantly insist their opposition be nerfed and played poorly until that is actually true. The logical disconnect does not register.

Offline LordBlades

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2012, 10:30:14 AM »
This also leads to such gems as justifying a bad class not being bad because it is a "team game". For instance a monk's role in a team is "not consuming resources". It seems that they manufacture roles for bad classes rather than actually considering the roles in a party first then slotting the classes into them.

Unless it can acquire an item-independent way to :
a) fly or be a meaningful threat at range
b) reliably mitigate and/or recover from Hp damage, ability damage/drain, energy drain, petrification, paralysis, magical diseases and a whole number of other nasty conditions
c)get away/not die if shit really hits the fan

at the very least, the monk fails hard even at that invented role.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2012, 11:08:37 AM by LordBlades »

Offline McBeardly

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2012, 12:16:33 PM »
Those people are usually not adept enough at the game to realize how vital fly is.

Offline GreatRobo

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2012, 05:52:28 PM »
As a player I must say I'd be a bit miffed if there was a wizard standing in the back eviscerating all of the enemies. As long as I'm of SOME help I feel great with the character I'm playing. Just doing things like picking locks or going all stealth on an enemy base don't make me feel good... there's nothing quite as gratifying as doing damage to enemies.

Offline Libertad

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2012, 06:01:29 PM »
As a player I must say I'd be a bit miffed if there was a wizard standing in the back eviscerating all of the enemies. As long as I'm of SOME help I feel great with the character I'm playing. Just doing things like picking locks or going all stealth on an enemy base don't make me feel good... there's nothing quite as gratifying as doing damage to enemies.

This is one of the great questions people have debated over in 3rd Edition.  How do you balance things so that there's no trap options for newbies and useless classes, but having no Godlike save-or-suck machines taking out all opposition and stepping on the other players' toes?  Some try to power down casters, while some try to power up noncasters; some do both.

JaronK's Tier System is an attempt at a solution by grouping together classes by effectiveness.

What noncasters need is more Area of Effects, Save or Suck abilities, ways of inflicting status effects, and mobility.  Tome of Battle is a step in the right direction, but doesn't go far enough.

Offline GreatRobo

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2012, 06:59:02 PM »
When it comes to me I'd rather play a character that I would love to play then a character that's simply good to be good. Now if I WANT to play a fully optimized caster then sure. I guess as long as the person isn't playing a full caster just for the sake of being OP I don't mind.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2012, 07:17:20 PM »
When it comes to me I'd rather play a character that I would love to play then a character that's simply good to be good. Now if I WANT to play a fully optimized caster then sure. I guess as long as the person isn't playing a full caster just for the sake of being OP I don't mind.

The people who play a full caster with intent to break the game are assholes and therefore logic doesn't work on them (so this fallacy is irrelevant).

I play optimized full casters almost exclusively, and it's never with intent to break the game, it's because I like being able to do a lot of different things.  But see my post a couple pages back about how even an optimized full caster needs teammates.
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Offline GreatRobo

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2012, 07:23:57 PM »
I guess I'm kinda functioning on the idea that playing with dicks would suck in general  :lol.

Offline Endarire

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2012, 04:29:28 PM »
I propose a subtitle to this fallacy: "Suck like me."  (Taken from a Zero Punctuation review of Deus Ex: Human Revolution.)

Offline ImperatorK

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2012, 09:31:31 PM »
I'd say this: Teamwork makes optimization less important, because you don't really have to make sure that you'll cover all the bases for yourself. You can have some weaknesses, becuse your teammates can cover those and in return you cover some of their weaknesses.
OTOH, teamwork becomes quite important if there is not much optimization going on, because otherwise your team will be disorganized, full of weaknesses and with few (if any) strengths that can cover for those weaknesses.
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Offline Libertad

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2012, 09:33:10 PM »
I propose a subtitle to this fallacy: "Suck like me."  (Taken from a Zero Punctuation review of Deus Ex: Human Revolution.)

From here on forth, this will be incorporated into the fallacy's name!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2012, 09:35:02 PM by Libertad »

Offline McBeardly

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy (or Suck Like Me)
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2012, 11:32:55 PM »
I heartily support this renaming.

Offline veekie

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization," or "Suck Like Me" Fallacy
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2012, 03:04:26 AM »
As a player I must say I'd be a bit miffed if there was a wizard standing in the back eviscerating all of the enemies. As long as I'm of SOME help I feel great with the character I'm playing. Just doing things like picking locks or going all stealth on an enemy base don't make me feel good... there's nothing quite as gratifying as doing damage to enemies.
It MIGHT be better if the wizard would be taking a while to complete the spell(say, several rounds) AND you could defend him from hazards effectively until hes done. Thats teamwork.

If instead, you were rushing to his defense when he turns into a hydra and eviscerates the opposition, much faster than you could have. Thats invalidating teamwork.

Omnicompetent characters find it hard to actually benefit from active teamwork, as they have used their resources to make them excellent at every possible task. The only benefit they'd gain is well, for tasks that require multiple actions to complete(e.g. combat), where if another character can perform that same task, the actions are additive.
However, they are good at passive teamwork, where a task requires that nobody fails(like stealth), because a failure for one is a failure for all. D&D having a schizophrenic view of role protection(you need to be good at every defense you're likely to be hit by, but you only need to be hypercompetent at one way of doing a task to deal with all tasks of that type), this does leave 'role protected' characters a bit screwed.
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Offline LordBlades

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization" fallacy
« Reply #34 on: February 08, 2012, 07:21:31 AM »
When it comes to me I'd rather play a character that I would love to play then a character that's simply good to be good. Now if I WANT to play a fully optimized caster then sure. I guess as long as the person isn't playing a full caster just for the sake of being OP I don't mind.

As long as 'what you want to play' refers to a generic archetype(rather than a specific class) there are ways to do it and be at least decent mechanically (the guy that stands in the front and fight with a sword doesn't have to be a fighter, he can very well be a warblade). Not until you reach quite high levels or you're playing in a very optimized group will you find archetypes that just aren't viable.

Offline GreatRobo

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Re: The "teamwork invalidates optimization," or "Suck Like Me" Fallacy
« Reply #35 on: February 08, 2012, 01:01:55 PM »
When it comes to me I'd rather play a character that I would love to play then a character that's simply good to be good. Now if I WANT to play a fully optimized caster then sure. I guess as long as the person isn't playing a full caster just for the sake of being OP I don't mind.

As long as 'what you want to play' refers to a generic archetype(rather than a specific class) there are ways to do it and be at least decent mechanically (the guy that stands in the front and fight with a sword doesn't have to be a fighter, he can very well be a warblade). Not until you reach quite high levels or you're playing in a very optimized group will you find archetypes that just aren't viable.

Hmm a good point at least mechanically at low levels it IS hard to create a wholly nonviable charecter.