[Pathfinder] Zen Archer Monk Handbook discussion thread

[Talon378]

So, because the QM ability switches are optional they don't count against the limitation prohibiting two archetypes from being taken if they both target the same ability? Just as the rules are written, that doesn't seem to wash with what I am reading. I don't want to sound like a doubting thomas or anything, but could you post where Paizo is confirming that in the faq's or on their boards?

All of QM's switches are optional, you can play a "QM" and not take a single ki power.  This has been established on the paizo boards.  There is literally no reason for a monk not to call himself a QM, even if he never reaches level 4 in monk (first chance to swap) or he's playing a Martial Artist (who doesn't even get a ki pool!).  Being a QM, in and of itself, does nothing.  QM was basically an attempt to straight up buff the monk.  It didn't do much, sadly.

[Talon378]

Here is what I am not understanding. There are eight class abilities that are replaced under the Zen Archer Archetype. Every one of those eight are also targeted by the QM's optional ability to replace them under their replacement rules. Reading the rules, they state that if two Archetypes target the same ability, then those two archetypes cannot be selected. I am just not understanding how a Zen Archer can also be a QM as well.

Since QM is all about changing out powers at almost every level, and the Zen Archer changes out some of those powers itself, it would seem to me that you cannot select both of these archetypes.

The only two that ZA switches out that are on the QM list are Diamond Body and Tongue of the Sun and Moon.  Both of which you can keep with QM if you want as they're on the QM list, so there should be no problem taking both.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I cannot find an official answer through google search, not sure if it's been addressed.  But overwhelming majority seems to agree w/ my interpretation.  Also, I'd argue by virtue of basic logic that this is how it works.  It's either optional or it's not.

[Talon378]

Actually, Logic would dictate that regardless of whether you exercise the optional swap or not, the ability has still been targeted by the archetype, thus nullifying the ability to take another archetype that targets the same ability.

Having said that, I see your reasoning and see where you are coming from. I personally do not agree with it, but if I were playing in a game you ran I wouldn't argue it.

I cannot find an official answer through google search, not sure if it's been addressed.  But overwhelming majority seems to agree w/ my interpretation.  Also, I'd argue by virtue of basic logic that this is how it works.  It's either optional or it's not.

[Bobox]

So I am making a Zen Archer Monk(ZAM) for Pathfinder Society and was wanting some input if anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear them.

Race: Human(Love the picture on Handbook and gonna use for my standie I use for games)
Class: Zen Archer Monk Lvl 2

Stats (20 Point Buy) after Human Bonuses
Str: 14           14
Dex: 14          14
Con: 12    or  13         Cant Decide Please Help!
Int: 10            8
Wis: 18          19
Cha: 8            7

AC: 16
HP: 16 (Pathfinder Society uses the average roll so it's always half the Hit dice plus one so in this case five and max HP first level)

Now with these I will Also be sinking my first 8000 gp I earn to a Belt of +2 Strength and the Headband of +2 Wisdom

Traits: Wisdom of the Flesh(not sure which skill yet thinking stealth of acrobatics), Reactionary

Weapons: Darkwood Composite Longbow(+2 Str)- Will upgrade when I get the +2 Strength belt....no cost to me bought with 2 Prestige Points

Feats:
ZAM Lvl 1: Precise Shot
Lvl 1: Dodge*
Class Special Lvl 1: Perfect Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike
Human Feat: Mobility*
ZAM: Lvl 2: Point Blank Shot
Class Special Lvl 2: Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)

*Thinking about going into Shoot on the Run. It's definitely up for debate, I also like Far Shot and being a sniper. What I'd really love to do is maximize my flurry of blows as much as possible.

If anyone has thoughts questions or concerns please address them this is my first attempt at a monk in years and am hoping for some help.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I have never played PFS, only heard about it, and I have a feeling the particulars of PFS will largely shape what is "good" to do.  That being said...

How many skills do you want to have?  The 1st or 2nd array choice basically comes down to the Int change.  Cha is useless, and Con isn't really changing much.  Wis 19 does mean when you hit the max level of 12 you'll end w/ an even Wis score, which is nice, so I'm partial to #2.  Could also just take array 1, drop cha to 7, and up Int to 12, if you find yourself wanting more skill points.

Wisdom in the Flesh: Acrobatics is nice for not falling prone, stealth is good for scouting, either is decent.  To get the full benefit, you'd want a skill not already a class skill, best choice there probably being disable device to be a rogue stand-in.  But I've heard PFS has few traps (though DD also helps w/ locks).  Is this true?

If you're starting at 2, those feats look fine.  If starting at 1, I would switch Dodge and PBS around.  I would drop Mobility, you really shouldn't need it...
Shot on the Run is a bad feat.  All archers want to full attack, you also rely on it for full BAB.  If you want to get it as an optional tactic as your level 10 bonus feat, fine.  But it's very unsynergistic and actually paying the feats to get to it is painful.

Far Shot is ok if you can actually get much use out of it (I've heard PFS is mostly cramped dungeons...is this true?), take that instead of Mobility, perhaps.

If you're getting Dodge, I suggest you pick up Crane Style at 1 (level 3 is for Deadly Aim) and Crane Wing at 5.  Very good style, and you *can* fight defensively with ranged attacks.  Otherwise...you should really look into a style to pick up, you have the IUS pre-requisite.  Monkey Style is a nice no-feat-investment-needed option that protects you from falling prone (can't shoot while prone and if you stand up, it would normally rob you of full attacking).

[Bobox]

PFS isn't always cramped dungeons but you are in a good few but the newer stuff they are getting out of that habit.

The trap situation is indifferent, most of the ones you run into are either ones you can't disarm or it's a rune of Fireball on the door that blows you up when you open the door(my bard is a smoking pair of boots because of this), what sucks is that without Trapfinding you cannot disarm magical traps. But I'll probably take DD because in PFS you never know who you are playing with since parties are pretty much random I've had 4 rouges at one table lol. Plus I don't plan on opening doors let the fighter with his key to the city(Big Freaking Axe).

I like the Crane Style but I also like Monkey style a lot. Is there any other feats to get the most out of your Flurry of Bows? Im really looking to be the best archer there is and I wanna pull out some crazy monk shenanigans that only we can do lol.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't think so for PFS.  There's a Noble Scion feat for +2 damage w/ a composite bow, but it's probably not PFS legal.  Not much else to boost damage output, outside of UMD ranks + dangerously curious + wand of Gravity Bow.  There's some new bracers in Ultimate Equipment that only cost a few thousand gp and make your crit range 19-20/x2, but do not stack w/ imp. crit or keen.

[Talon378]

I am playing a zen archer in a PFS game currently and I went a different direction with my stats. If you asre a member of a pretty big party and the party can handle you being hindered for a level, you are better off, in my opinion, spending those points on extra wisdom than you are Dex. Once you get to third level, both your AC and your to hit with your bow are going to be based on Wisdom instead of Dex, making dex alot less desirable. Once you have spent the points in Dex, you will be stuck having spent points on a stat that isn't doing very much for you. Alternatively, you could take those Dex points and spend them on more strength, so you can get more bang for your buck out of a composite bow as well. Shifting those points to Int would net you more skills.


Just a couple thoughts.....

So I am making a Zen Archer Monk(ZAM) for Pathfinder Society and was wanting some input if anyone has any thoughts I'd love to hear them.

Race: Human(Love the picture on Handbook and gonna use for my standie I use for games)
Class: Zen Archer Monk Lvl 2

Stats (20 Point Buy) after Human Bonuses
Str: 14           14
Dex: 14          14
Con: 12    or  13         Cant Decide Please Help!
Int: 10            8
Wis: 18          19
Cha: 8            7

AC: 16
HP: 16 (Pathfinder Society uses the average roll so it's always half the Hit dice plus one so in this case five and max HP first level)

Now with these I will Also be sinking my first 8000 gp I earn to a Belt of +2 Strength and the Headband of +2 Wisdom

Traits: Wisdom of the Flesh(not sure which skill yet thinking stealth of acrobatics), Reactionary

Weapons: Darkwood Composite Longbow(+2 Str)- Will upgrade when I get the +2 Strength belt....no cost to me bought with 2 Prestige Points

Feats:
ZAM Lvl 1: Precise Shot
Lvl 1: Dodge*
Class Special Lvl 1: Perfect Strike, Improved Unarmed Strike
Human Feat: Mobility*
ZAM: Lvl 2: Point Blank Shot
Class Special Lvl 2: Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)

*Thinking about going into Shoot on the Run. It's definitely up for debate, I also like Far Shot and being a sniper. What I'd really love to do is maximize my flurry of blows as much as possible.

If anyone has thoughts questions or concerns please address them this is my first attempt at a monk in years and am hoping for some help.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Dex is still useful for AC, init, reflex, and skills.  And he will need Dex 13 for Deadly Aim, possibly other feats as well.  13-14 really is the minimum dex a ZAM should be aiming for, normally.

[Talon378]

Good point, I forgot that I kept my Dex at 13 to qualify for some feats. I still think that the gain you get from an elevated Dex is less than the gain he would see in some other stats (Specifically Strength, the ability to get extra damage per arrow can't be understated). But you are right about him needing that 13 Dex to qualify for some feats.......

Dex is still useful for AC, init, reflex, and skills.  And he will need Dex 13 for Deadly Aim, possibly other feats as well.  13-14 really is the minimum dex a ZAM should be aiming for, normally.

[littha]

I never realised how irritating it was for people to put quotes after their posts rather than before until now.

[CKorfmann]

Assuming my very limited knowledge and experience at present...

I really like wolflord's character build.  After reading all over the net about ZAM and hearing about the Empyreal Bloodline, I came to the same conclusion though I had not settled on Tattooed as the type of Sorcerer.  I will likely go crossblooded with a dragon bloodline to get the wings and dragon form.  At any rate, I look forward to building this character as soon as I can. 

Unless it's just in a suppliment that is not included in the PFSRD, I don't know why I can't find a Greatbow anywhere in PF.  That being the case, I'd simply ask for a direct conversion to PF from 3.5 (I'd allow it in my game) and sub Exotic Wep. Prof. (Greatbow) for his Rapid Shot at 1st lvl.  I know it's spending a feat on an average of +1 damage per arrow, but at higher levels and with buffs, that +1 could add up quickly, not to mention the extended range of the bow.  And... we were "throwing it away" on Rapid Shot anyway.  If there is another, better feat, I'd be interested in hearing it.  I'd like to get evasion back at some point, but I don't know when it would be available.  What's the best feat to take to get back some of the melee power lost to the archer feats?

I'm also interested in the Half-Giant race.  I was disappointed that the Goliath didn't make it to PF, but understand (sortof) all the OGL stuff involved.  Is this just their best effort to make the conversion?  I'd likely try to make a Goliath conversion myself.  A large Greatbow (1d12), as opposed to a medium one (1d10), now we're getting somewhere.  Although, I never did think it quite made sense for the 'powerful build' feature to work for + sizing bows.  They likely couldn't give it a full draw.  Anyway, if you're interested in playing a LA'd character, I think a Hound Archon (LA +5) would be a great race to play as well.  I've been thinking about them as a Monk for a long time.  3.5 had them as a playable race HERE.

[Empirate]

Why're you not including Aasimar among the races? They do get a Wis bonus and some handy resistances, are Outsiders, have Darkvision, get a bonus to Perception... you could do much, much worse! Even if the Cha bonus is kind of wasted on a Monk, Aasimar are strictly an above-average choice IMO.

[CKorfmann]

Why're you not including Aasimar among the races? They do get a Wis bonus and some handy resistances, are Outsiders, have Darkvision, get a bonus to Perception... you could do much, much worse! Even if the Cha bonus is kind of wasted on a Monk, Aasimar are strictly an above-average choice IMO.

I've thought about that too.  It occured to me especially when researching multi-classing with sorcerer.  The Empyreal bloodline is an offshoot of celestial (if I'm not mistaken) which makes the Aasimar make even more sense.  The question I had is, how do you give a celestial bloodline to an Aasimar Sorcerer?  They already have celestial blood, but that's off topic I guess.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I suppose they are a good choice.  Not Oread good, but good.

There's new variants to basically a la carte pick your stat bonuses in some side book, too.  And ARG love.  I need to update both this and the witch handbook sometime...

[CKorfmann]

+1 for updating this handbook.  I don't know when I'll have a chance to make this character, but I'm really looking forward to it.  I'd love to see your ideal build spelled out. 

Am I making it up, or is there a feat somewhere that combines attribute bonuses to attack with melee or ranged weapons?  I was thinking that there was something out there that let DEX and XXX bonuses stack for ranged attacks.  It could get really interesting to see WIS and DEX stack for ranged attack, but it would probably be overkill.

Also, I'd like to see how you would incorporate use of the Greatbow.  It seems like a no-brainer to use. 

[CKorfmann]

Anyhow, I tried the Sorcerer/Zen archer build recently and it seems pretty awesome (at least on paper).  Human Empyreal Bloodline Tattooed Sorcerer 1 / Qing-ong Zen Archer 5.

Tattooed sorcerer: Gives me a familiar that can safely hide in my skin, which I took a compsognathus for the +4 initiative (of course). 

Monkey Style Feat: No Ac or attack penalties when prone.  Crawling or standing up does not provoke attacks of opportunity.  Succeed on dc 20 acrobatics check to stand up as a swift action.  Add Wis bonus to acrobatics check (note that this is now double wis bonus thanks to Wisdom in the flesh trait).  With the required 5 ranks in acrobatics to qualify for this feat I now auto-stand up as a swift action as my total bonus to acrobatics is 20.  I also had to take 5 ranks in climb to qualify for the style feat, but it never hurts to have some climb.

You certainly don't need the extra Acrobat bonuses, but what do you think about taking a Monkey as your familiar instead of the Compsognathus?  It gives you +3 to Acrobatics.  I know that +4 initiative is nothing to sneeze at, but having the insanely high Acrobat check can be really interesting in combat.  You could move through enemy spaces with little to no chance of getting an AoO and easily flank foes without taking damage.  Where this would do little for you as a ranged attacker, you might be able to help out a little with melee at the end of a fight against a tough opponent, or even move through the battlefield to get to a better shooting perch.  Plus, it makes your fantastic jump ability a little better.  This could also be handy.  It might be a tough trade for a very significant +4 initiative, but it fits thematically with your Monkey Style feat too, if that makes a difference.   

Once you get to third level, both your AC and your to hit with your bow are going to be based on Wisdom instead of Dex, making dex alot less desirable.

I don't see that anywhere in regard to AC.  Can someone verify that?

[Garryl]

As a Monk, you get Wisdom to AC (and CMD) starting at level 1 (see the AC Bonus ability). You still add this on top of Dex, though, so while Wis is really awesome for a ZAM, Dex has its uses, too (even though it's less desirable).

Skill checks are generally easier to boost than initiative checks and tend to come up less frequently (initiative is every single combat), so getting a bonus to Acrobatics is generally less useful. Plus, you shouldn't even need to use it that much. As an archer, you want to stay away, so tumbling to avoid AoOs shouldn't come up unless you're doing something wrong (Wis is a priority stat for you, so a good Perception to avoid ambushes is a given). Jumping around is mostly obsoleted by flight, which should be available anywhere between levels 5 and 11. Finally, if you're going to compare +3 to a skill to +4 initiative, remember that if you were to take them as feats, Skill Focus would eventually become a +6 bonus, twice the familiar's bonus, but the familiar is always as good as Improved Initiative's +4 bonus.

[CKorfmann]

I see what you're saying.  I agree that +4 to initiative is a big deal.  I guess I'm looking at it from more of an aesthetic point of view and keeping with the monkey motif.  The high Acrobatic score would be useful, but I'd also agree that it's not as useful as the initiative bonus. 

I have also thought about climbing/jumping losing out to the fly ability later.  It's a dilema I've considered for a while.  I invision my archer being a good climber/jumper to gain the best high ground perch.  Crossing with Sorcerer would negate the need for those skills at high levels, but you'd be stuck on the ground in the mean time without it.  I suppose there is the terrain question though.  For some reason, my brain's default campaign setting is a forest and not a dungeon.  I guess I've played to many Rangers.