[Pathfinder] Zen Archer Monk Handbook discussion thread

[Garryl]

If it didn't cost a feat, it might be worth it about one in a million times. If you can pick your stuff, then it just goes to might be worth it. But since it costs a feat, you're probably not going to do much better than break even, depending on exactly how much you value the extra 2 Wis and whatever you can get for the second trait. Probably not worth the effort, though.

[deuxhero]

If you are a Dwarf, Toilcrafter is an interesting trait. It qualifies you for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and unlike Master Craftsmen, doesn't cost a feat or delay taking CMA&A AND you can make some +1 arrows during your downtime without spending anything else.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Wow, also a religion trait.  Why?

Anyway...that just doesn't seem too useful.  As soon as you have a +1 bow, all your arrows are +1 by default.  The trait does not allow enhancing beyond +1 and can't add special properties, so it seems quite worthless, honestly.

[deuxhero]

Yes, but by then you can qualify for Craft Magic Arms and Armor using it.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Ok, maybe I'm reading it wrong.  It looks to me like with this trait, you may take CA&A feat and make weapons of a +1 value, but never anything beyond that.  The trait itself has no benefit until you take the feat.

You seem to be reading it as "dude, you can make +1 weapons at 1st level!"  And then later on take the CA&A feat to craft up to +5, special properties, the whole deal.

I just...don't think that's how it works as written, nor the intent...

[deuxhero]

Yep, Pazio's editing is as worse than WotC's.

I read it as two separate abilities because it doesn't mention anywhere you need CMA&A for that ability. Prehaps its just the fact that 3/4ths minimum of the traits were so boring and useless and I'm desperate to see ANYTHING worth note beyond "x is a class skill" "+2 to init/+1 to init and pesudo quick-draw", "+1 to a save" or "+1 to saves vs arcane/divine" (and religion actually had a larger number of them by far) .

[akalsaris]

As far as I can tell, all the good traits are campaign or religion, or ancestral weapon (even post-nerf it's alright). With that said, I usually use them to grab 2 skills that I'd like to have on any given character.

[deuxhero]

There are some things worth looking at in other categories. The problem is that most of the UNIQUE traits that matter for a ZAM are stuck there (there are a lot of things for casters in there). There are a bunch of ones repeated with slightly differing fluff half a dozen times each. For a ZAM the various +1 saves aren't as hot thanks to all your saves being good and you have what you want as a class skill as class skill alreddy, though the +2 init/+1 init + quickdraw in surprise round are worth looking at.

As for unique traits, let me take a look at my ratings for summoner and recheck the ones that weren't just universally crap for anyone...

Magical Knack is handy for the Arcane Archer build. If the GM lets Storm Hunter apply to wind spells or the DM is a dick and throws heavy winds at you constantly, it can be useful

edit: Re-read your guide. Noticed one other trait I should note: Agent of Chanc like White Raven Tactics, benefits from the fact that you are your own ally, though the cost of an action makes this worse if you don't plan on staying next to allies.

[StreamOfTheSky]

You cannot use Agent of Chance on yourself.  It says you can use it on an adjacent ally; if you can find a way to be adjacent to yourself, let me know.  Still, it's once per day and only for a skill check... doesn't seem too hot to me.

[Solo]

You cannot use Agent of Chance on yourself.  It says you can use it on an adjacent ally; if you can find a way to be adjacent to yourself, let me know.

I am beside myself trying to find a way to do that.

[deuxhero]

Only skill checks? Sorry.

How did I miss that?

[Vis]

Hi all. Great guide, I have been using it to make a new ZAM for my current game. I just had a quick question: is there any reason the Vanara did not make it into your playable bestiary races section? Actually, I just noticed that it's from the bestiary 3, I dunno if that was out at the time. Still, it's a simian race with +2 Dex/Wis, and -2 Cha, so it has a bit up on the Tengu, and it has a native climb speed. Lots of potential flavor or shenanigans overall, either way. Let me know what you think if you have time, thanks!

Also, apologies for the semi-necro.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Thank you.  Yeah, B3 wasn't out when I wrote this, iirc.  I should probably update.  Vanara is a pretty good race, and the tail is always handy, too.  Climb's usefulness to an archer is mostly, "does the DM provide potential 'archer perches' for me to climb up?" so its usefulness is pretty campaign/DM dependent.  It's definitely better than Tengu, not sure if enough to warrant a higher rating, though.

[Talon378]

For another good option for a race for a ZAM, take a look at the Archon Heritage for Aasimar in Blood of Angels. It makes for a pretty good option, especially at level 3 when that bonus to Wisdom is fully realized.

[Talon378]

Oh, and if you are looking for a useful trait, I have a magical one for ya. Magical Talent:Mending can be extremely useful for repairing your bow when you have the inevitable broken bowstring.........

[Talon378]

How exactly are you saying that every monk is a QM? If you become a QM, then how are you getting the abilities from the ZAM when you are specifically barred from taking two archetypes???

[Mooncrow]

How exactly are you saying that every monk is a QM? If you become a QM, then how are you getting the abilities from the ZAM when you are specifically barred from taking two archetypes???

Where are you getting that from? 

"Characters may take more than one archetype as long as they meet the requirements."  And I don't see a specific exception to that rule in either of those archetypes. 

[Talon378]

From page 72 of the APG, "A character can take more than one archetype and
garner additional alternate class features, but none of
the alternate class features can replace or alter the same
class feature from the core class as another alternate
class feature. For example, a paladin could not be both
a hospitaler and an undead scourge since they both
modify the smite evil class feature and both replace the
aura of justice class feature."

Since QM is all about changing out powers at almost every level, and the Zen Archer changes out some of those powers itself, it would seem to me that you cannot select both of these archetypes.

How exactly are you saying that every monk is a QM? If you become a QM, then how are you getting the abilities from the ZAM when you are specifically barred from taking two archetypes???

Where are you getting that from? 

"Characters may take more than one archetype as long as they meet the requirements."  And I don't see a specific exception to that rule in either of those archetypes.

[Slaughterhouserock]

Since QM is all about changing out powers at almost every level, and the Zen Archer changes out some of those powers itself, it would seem to me that you cannot select both of these archetypes.

The only two that ZA switches out that are on the QM list are Diamond Body and Tongue of the Sun and Moon.  Both of which you can keep with QM if you want as they're on the QM list, so there should be no problem taking both.

[StreamOfTheSky]

All of QM's switches are optional, you can play a "QM" and not take a single ki power.  This has been established on the paizo boards.  There is literally no reason for a monk not to call himself a QM, even if he never reaches level 4 in monk (first chance to swap) or he's playing a Martial Artist (who doesn't even get a ki pool!).  Being a QM, in and of itself, does nothing.  QM was basically an attempt to straight up buff the monk.  It didn't do much, sadly.