CO Theory: Wizards don't need Intelligence.

[X-Codes]

God damnit, SorO.  Aberrate requires a living target, too.  Aspect of the Earth Hunter isn't on the Sor/Wiz spell list, either.  You might get *some* credit if you instead brought up Displacer Form, which is a 1 round per level spell that costs a Standard Action to use, but casting spells in Displacer Form is difficult (it says you can speak and cast spells, but gives no mention of whether or not you can use somatic components and makes it very difficult to use material components, so you're potentially restricting half the spells on your list because of not having material components).

You said that "spells ignore AC" which is patently false, hence my list.  Are you even reading?  Apparently not since you can't even find a spell that turns an undead-typed creature into a non-undead-typed creature.  If you want some high-level ray spells that you really want to dodge, then look at Stun Ray, Antimagic Ray, Avascular Mass, and Ray of Light.

Also, epic facepalm on partially-charged wands.  Really?  Your argument wasn't weak enough without citing Giacomo?  Also, a level 5 Wizard with 16 Charisma (let's be generous) has a +7 bonus to UMD.  He is NOT reliably using that skill any time soon.

SorO, the fact that you've said something before doesn't make it any less wrong relative to the first time you've said it.  It's obvious that you're either uninterested or incapable of an informed discussion on the topic, therefore GTFO.

[Rebel7284]

Can you guys not disagree without being dicks to each other?

[X-Codes]

Can you guys not disagree without being dicks to each other?

The answer to this question is moot.

I'm going to respond to Phoenix at some point, but my lunch hour magically disappeared.

[SneeR]

How on earth do you add your INT mod to hp!?

[Halinn]

How on earth do you add your INT mod to hp!?

Faerie Mysteries Initiate (dragon 319)

[X-Codes]

HP is really the minor benefit of constitution, IMO.  With Wizards and most Wizard PrCs having a poor Fortitude save, your Con mod is going to be the bulk of your Fortitude modifier between level 1 and obtaining full immunity to everything, especially at low levels.  At higher levels, a good Con modifier will give you a *lot* of HP where your HD isn't giving all that many, but so can being some cheesed out undead thing with more-or-less arbitrary bonuses to HP.

EDIT: As for those two charts, those are MM creatures taken straight from the book, correct?  That also means that while the save DC ideals are somewhat easily obtainable and the touch AC is low, those values can get very high very quickly if your DM plays his monsters intelligently.  That Cloak of Resistance or Ring of Protection that's part of the creature's loot, for example, can be on their back instead of in their inexplicable pile of gold.  That Unholy Aura/Shield of Law/Holy Aura/Cloak of Chaos SLA can provide a large bonus as well.  This isn't even leaving the core environment yet, where your DM might find the Scintillating Scales spell and make it a very different game.

[darqueseid]

I think its the spells/day actually, more than anything else that forces you to max int.  You should want a 36 int once you can cast 9th level spells:

at 17th level you "can" have:
+2 (racial)
+4 from levels
+5 from reading an int book
+6 from headband of int (etc.)
+1 step from aging

This translates into a 36 int.  While the somewhat lackluster +13 to save DCs(at 17th level) "may" be useful to you. and the extra numbers on your skill checks are "meh to good" depending on your build, it cannot be denied that having an extra 9th level spell perday at 17th level is valuable(to say nothing of the other bonus low level spells).  When we're talking about what you should be focused on doing as any kind of prepared caster(uhh, casting spells?) it is invaluable to have as many available spell slots as possible to account for memorizing spells that are just not useful that day.
As a wizard You should endeavor to have +1 spell at least, +2 spells at best, to your highest available spellcasting level at all times. 

Consider
19 int (absolute Minimum)
+1
+1
+1
+1
+0
+0
+0
+0
+0

vs 36 int
+4
+3
+3
+3
+3
+2
+2
+2
+2

You get fully 21 more spells per day than the 19 int wizard.
even though 21 spells is ALOT anyway it still doesn't acurately reflect the power your losing because many of those are also high level spells.

You should measure it in terms of Spellpoints to get an even starker contrast here(variant system where spell levels are 1 point each);
the 19 int wiz effectively loses 96 spellpoints worth of spells, to the 36 int wiz. at lvl 17
Even the 35 int wiz loses effectively 17 spellpoints worth to the 36 int wiz. 
it gets worse and worse on a sliding scale. 

You can say that the Full effectiveness of int doesn't really kick in until lvl 17, but the above comments and charts show that high save DCs are good at low levels, to which most have basically agreed to. 

Resolved: having a high int at low levels is good because higher save DCs are important then. As the importance of save DCs diminishes, the importance of having as many bonus spells as possible goes up (because you are gaining access to higher spell levels and gaining more slots to benefit).  Therefore, it is always* best to maximize Int as a wizard.

Your arguments about con and dex are valid, but they pale in comparison to the arguments I outlined above.  Touch AC doesn't increase with levels generally, and if mobs are dealing massive hp damage to you at any level then your doing something wrong and probably deserve to be dead(to say nothing about PAO abuse for physical stats).  They are good stats to be sure, but they are dump, they cannot compare to int. 

*(true till late epic levels) You should also get to 38 int for 21st level epic.  so you can get improved spell capacity and +2 spells on that slot level as well.  and 40 for/after 24th level as soon as you can swing it, etc etc. Int is just extremely good until you stop taking imp spell capacity, for most wizards, probably 2 times. meaning int has a "usefulness" cap of 40 not 19.  40's attainable in epic levels though its not  "easy"

 

 



 

[Rebel7284]

I'd like to note that how many high level slots you need depends on the way your DM runs the campaign.  If you can ALWAYS Rope Trick at lower levels and ALWAYS Planeshift to your own fast-time demiplane at higher levels, the power of having redundant spell slots goes down.  Even more so if you have Uncanny Forethought or are a Shadowcraft Mage to make sure that you always have the right spell. =)

[X-Codes]

I think people are taking the title of my thread to a logical extreme that I am not totally endorsing.  First off, I'm kinda offended that people would even consider me recommending a Wizard have 19 Intelligence ever, unless, of course, they were just waiting for a level up to get the 20th.  It's a completely ridiculous number based on that 20th point being way too easy and too good to not pick up.

Also, darqueseid, you're completely ignoring incremental bonuses and opportunity cost in your analysis.  To break it down...

18 Base: If you're given a 28 point buy, the most likely array of stats you'll get from this is 8/12/14/18/10/8
+2 Racial: Pretty much automatically means -2 Con, including at the levels where Constitution "matters."
+4 from levels: If you roll for stats, I could see putting 1 point somewhere else instead of putting them all into Intelligence, but otherwise it's not a bad idea to put them in Intelligence since the opportunity cost for Level points is always the same.
+5 from reading an Int book/+6 from headband: Costs 173,500 gp, which is more than half the WBL of a 17th-level character.  Furthermore, you're not likely to find a +5 Int Book during an adventure by 17th-level either, given that it's a 22nd-level item.
+1 Old: Since most people keep their scores even, this likely results in your Dexterity and Constitution modifiers dropping, and will not result in your Wisdom modifier increasing to potentially counter-balance that loss.

On the other hand, we can compare this to a Wizard that has 28 Intelligence at level 17: 8/14/14/16/14/8 array, +6 item, +4 level points, +2 tome.

Net Improvements: 82,500 gold.  You can buy a lot of toys for that kind of money, even expensive ones like Greater Metamagic Rods, to make your best spells better.
+2 Initiative.  That Eager enhancement you wanted to buy?  Now you don't need it.
+2 to Touch AC.  That money you saved on the Eager enhancement?  How about you spend it on Defending for even more here?
+2 to Ranged Touch Attacks.  I mentioned a few good, high-level ones in a previous post.
+2 to all saves.  Yes, a +2 stacking bonus to all saving throws for free.
+34 HP.  Average rolls for 17d4 will result in about 45 HP, so you almost double your hit points for free.  That's really nice.

Net loss: -4 on the save DCs of your spells, which barely matters because save-or-sucks stopped being relevant a while ago.  1 fewer spell of each spell level, which also barely matters because you're going from 4 or 5 9th-level spells to 3 or 4 9th-level spells, which is nothing compared to the long list of bonuses, and with each lower level of spells, the difference is incrementally less and, therefore, less relevant.  That's it.

[darqueseid]

What a wizard should be doing is casting spells.  period.

You make good points but I think your comparing apples to oranges here

you should compare
+1 spell of each level (VERY important and useful, each spell especially high level ones can be game changers)
+4 dcs (agreed not as important, but still a 20% chance boost to effects in those rare times)
+x to skill points (the least relevant but some skills are needed for spells so it has some impact however small)

vs
+2 initiative -Useless by 17? (celerity)
+2 to touch AC -will this really save you? anything thats touch attacking you at 17 has the BAB to break through.  And thats also assuming your not using some protection spell like blink, mirror image or even abrupt jaunt (usefulness is marginal at best)
+2 to ranged touch attacks -still marginal.  its extremely rare that you will face a creature that you miss consistently with touch attacks, and if you do, at 17 theres always a quickened true strike or an area effect spell option(tiny bit useful)
+2 to all saves -this is probably the best benefit of your setup an extra 10% to succeed on saves.  the only benefit worth it imho  Defensive buffs can help out here alot though.  This benefit is really only for fort and reflex, your will save is so high an extra +2 isn't really a big deal. 
+34 hps - meh.  34 hps is not going to save you vs anything cr 17.  as a wizard, there should never really be a time when your hitpoints are getting hit or your playing it wrong, and you should probably be more worried about getting critted or worry about your saves. 

So what your really trading is one REALLY good benefit, more spells, for a decent one +2 to saves(and that doesn't even help spellcasting at all).  Furthermore, everything your getting in trade really has nothing to do with spellcasting except marginally maybe in the case of rays,  whereas everything int does for you "can" help spellcasting in some way. 

[X-Codes]

^ and 82,500 gp

Seriously, do you know what you can do with 82k?  If that lost 9th-level spell bothers you so much, buy a pearl of power.

EDIT: Also, a +4 to your save DC is not a 20% chance that your spells requiring saves will work, because unless you do a whole lot outside of juicing your Int score, you're going to have a hard time even getting back on the RNG.  Then you're over-balancing towards relying on save-or-lose effects, which makes anything with save-replace maneuvers hell to fight

Finally, skill points are not relevant to this discussion.  Wizards always have way more skill points than they really know what to do with, given that many of the best skills need to be class skills in order for you to use them at a time when they're relevant.  Besides, didn't someone come in here and try to discredit this thread by saying I was trying to replace the Fighter?  Why try to replace the Rogue?

[Phoenix00]

I'm going to respond to Phoenix at some point, but my lunch hour magically disappeared.

I am waiting patiently

[X-Codes]

Right, I suppose there was a bit more to your posts:

1)  Since buffing AC is usually expensive and not very useful
Since it's expensive, a cheap +2 from naturally higher Dex is worth a lot.  Luminous Armor is also solid spell, giving an effective +4 to touch AC if you want it.  For Deflection bonuses, there's either the Deflect spell (which is decent), or the Shield of Law/Holy Aura spells (which are really good).  A lesser crystal of arrow deflection gives a +5 bonus specifically to touch AC against ranged attacks, and you can make the buckler itself Ghost Touch to add it's enhancement bonus to your touch AC as well (for the low, low price of your Cleric targeting another object with chained Magic Vestment).

As for it not being very useful, don't say "spells ignore AC" please.  That's already been demonstrated to be wrong, and given the brutality of some ray spells, you really should care about putting up some decent defensive numbers against them.

2)  Failing a reflex saves usually means more hp damage, as long as you have 1 hp or more you don't lose actions.  Failing a fort or will save on the other hand almost always screws you for it means your are dead, losing actions, screwing the party, etc
Usually doesn't mean always, and even with a +6 Con item, darqueseid's Wizard has a mere 96 HP.  Taking more HP damage can be really, really bad with such a low total, and it just might become a solid target for a wizard that's decided to stack Elemental Body + Ghostform + Mystic Shield + Mind Blank, but has low Reflex saves and HP.

3)  Having a higher ranged touch attack with a spell can be absolved by picking spells that don't use ranged touch attacks (just like you are avoiding saves or dies.)
At which point it becomes, at a minimum, just as good as going all-out Intelligence since you are now rejecting some really good spells.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Ah the usual. I never troll/flame like what's in here. Heck I still use my original account at GitP. But apparently I'm o-so-controversial. So here goes:

This applies to mostly core, mostly unoptimized, and mostly "normalish" D&D campaigns: usual human wizards who are waiting to go archmage and actually play with a party, not faerie initiate necropolitan incantrixes who use clones 1-ups. Those guys max int because its all that helps them anymore. Everyone else has to split precious resources for unpleasant situations.

[Lo77o]

Ah the usual. I never troll/flame like what's in here. Heck I still use my original account at GitP. But apparently I'm o-so-controversial. So here goes:

This applies to mostly core, mostly unoptimized, and mostly "normalish" D&D campaigns: usual human wizards who are waiting to go archmage and actually play with a party, not faerie initiate necropolitan incantrixes who use clones 1-ups. Those guys max int because its all that helps them anymore. Everyone else has to split precious resources for unpleasant situations.

That might be taking it to the extremes.

The way i look at it in most of the games i play in, is that at low level, the differences between 10 and 14 in a physical stat, is a few pitiful HP or a few points of AC. And in most cases will not save you. At later levels a 14 Con or higher might translate into more then a handful of extra HP but a boosted Int will give you more skills "maxed knowledge skills to identify monster traits has saved my party more then a few times." The Int also translate into more spell slots, and higher save DC.

Lets say you use the extra spell slots from high intelligence to cast buffs on your self and maybe your party to shore up those weaknesses that your otherwise pitiful non-int stats burden you with, you still end up ahead.

But... I am fully aware that this is my opinion and it is only based on my own experience as a player and GM for some 15 years, so i will be following this thread in case something interesting shows up that would change my mind.

[SorO_Lost]

God damnit, SorO.  Aberrate requires a living target, too.  Aspect of the Earth Hunter isn't on the Sor/Wiz spell list, either.  You might get *some* credit if you instead brought up Displacer Form, which is a 1 round per level spell that costs a Standard Action to use, but casting spells in Displacer Form is difficult (it says you can speak and cast spells, but gives no mention of whether or not you can use somatic components and makes it very difficult to use material components, so you're potentially restricting half the spells on your list because of not having material components).

A. lolz. Maybe one of these day's I'll find a type changing spell that doesn't check if you're undead or not. PoA?
B. Hence using the superior skill point about to obtain UMD, ur point? Because mine was 5th level can equal total depreciation of starting physical stats as a rebuttal to you're 17th+ only and it did it's job remarkably well. Also UMD checks out of combat are trivial, do I need to explain how to do it with a +0 bonus or are you smart enough to figure it out?
C. Monsters lacking hands and arms can still provide somatic components and any material component can be used simply if it's carried. Funny I can't name a single Target entry on any Polymorph spell effect (At. All.) but I know that.

On get Dex for Ray defense. lllllllllllloooooooooooooooolllllllllz.
Ray Deflection makes you immune to rays using a 4th level spell slot, and it sucks. Yes, a 4th level spell that makes you totally immune to all the shit you claim your caster should dedicate him self to sucks. Friendly Fire reflects ranged touch attacks and you have the option to cast it as an Immediate action making it far far far better. And as a Personal spell it can be Persisted with metamagic mitigation too. A Wizard is functionally using your rays to you kill you by the 7th level (give or take).

Speaking of rays. Love you're list. The Int-less Wizard you're promoting can't even effectively use Antimagic Ray (save negs), and while  Ray of Light and Stun Ray are Dragon Mag so I really don't care about them I do know the stunning one also allows a save. So yeah, at least half the spells you call dire threats require high Int to even make them effective. Brilliant!

Not nearly as good as the idea proclaiming that a Wizard casting less spells with a more limited spell list is optimization, but close.

First off, I'm kinda offended that people would even consider me recommending a Wizard have 19 Intelligence ever.

I'm glad you don't recommend that. The OP outright asked "Do they even need more than 20?" in the first post of a thread titled "Wizards don't need Intelligence". Hell they even suggested starting with 14 and you won't even break 20 without Tomes playing like that. I've been failing to convince the OP that it is a terrible terrible idea, but maybe you'll have better luck since you're all hurt and brothered by things.

Can you guys not disagree without being dicks to each other?

At one time I'm sure we were. Then he noticed how awesome I am and he has been trying to copy me ever since. It's a poor impression through.

But... I am fully aware that this is my opinion and it is only based on my own experience as a player and GM for some 15 years, so i will be following this thread in case something interesting shows up that would change my mind.

I like how subtle that was. *takes notes*.

[darqueseid]

Well, xcodes, I didn't think you were suggesting a 19 int build, I only threw that in because It was the theoretical minimum a wizard could possibly have.  also I think it showed a sharp contrast in benefits that a wizard gets from int.

You did ask in the op about a 20 int wiz or a 30 int wiz,  and in both cases you are still losing a good number of spells per day: 19spells/day for a 20 int wiz and 8 spells/day (1 from each level except 2nd) for the 30 point wizard. 

As I've already stated, I believe a wizards spells per day are supremely important, because thats the wizards role.  But perhaps more pointedly, with those 8 extra spells/day you can easily do every benefit your talking about and have plenty of added bonus spells leftover.

+2  initiative, nerveskitter + 5 init for a lvl 1 slot
+2 to touch ac, extended mirror image in a 3rd level slot is way better than this benefit in almost all instances. At 17 your getting 8 images probably, giving you a 1/9th(11%) chance to be hit at all.
+2 ranged touch attacks, 1 quick true strike in a 5th level slot fixes this, most of the time you won't need it, but one is generally all you'll ever need,
+34 hps, quick vampiric touch reached, will drain more hps on average than 34 and it damages the enemy too in your the 8th level slot.
And finally REsistance, greater in a 4th level slot gives you +3 to all saves,

I'm sure there are better, more efficient ways to get the same result,  heroism persisted, does two of the above in one spell, and I'm sure there are ways to combine the other effects, but even using the most inefficient method, I've just shown that you can get better than every benefit you are arguing for, AND the int focused wizard will still have an additional 6th, 7th, and 9th level spell to use.

About the money, yes 82.5k can buy quite a bit, but it cannot buy a 6th 7th and 9th level spell slot.  The actual cost for pearls of power for each of those levels would be 166kgp, over twice the money for the most inefficient method so it doesn't make sense even from a feduciary standpoint either.  Your getting twice the monetary value from int than Your build is getting.

Im sorry xcodes given the above I must deny the OP's assertion that you should not max int, it just isn't logical in any way, not power wise, not monetarily, and not from the standpoint of what the class is meant to do.

@soros, I was just confused by most of your post as it doesn't seem to be on topic for the most part, you do have a point about ray deflection, just another way to make the benefits of avoiding int irrelevant with one spell...

[X-Codes]

Ugh... what the fuck has happened to the Brilliant Gameologists?

Re: 19 Int.  It doesn't show any kind of contrast at all because it has no association with reality.  What's important in this argument isn't the biggest boost from the baseline, it's what you can do to make a better Wizard.

Re: 30 Int.  Loses 7 spells relative to 36 Int, not 8.  30 Int gives another bonus 5th-level spell.

Re: Nerveskitter.  +5 init for one encounter, vs. +2 init for all encounters.  Further, you can cast Nerveskitter on someone else, which means that getting a free +2 init yourself means you can buff the party Cleric with +5 initiative and still have the same chance of going first.

Re: Mirror Image.  Mirror Image is a shit spell at 17th level.  Any schmuck and throw out a quickened Manyjaws to instagib all your images and hit you for damage, aside.  Greater Mirror Image is useful against precisely one full attack as a panic button.

Re: Quickened True Strike.  Just one?  Really?  You have 78 spells per day, and only one of them is going to require an attack roll from you, ever?

Re: Vampiric Touch.  Sure, it drains 35 HP on average.  Also, it's now a ranged touch attack, which means it can benefit from the +2 to hit that improved Dex gives you.  That said, it's temp HP, which means it interferes with spells like False Life or feats like Minor Shapeshift.

Re: Greater Resistance.  It's a Resistance bonus, which happens to be the most common type of bonus to saves.  If your Cleric isn't persisting Shield of Law/Holy Aura on the party, you're casting Superior Resistance yourself.  In either case, this doesn't work.

Re: Persistent Heroism.  LOLno.  Heroism is a touch spell.

Re: Money.  I brought up the Pearl of Power IX because you were whining about having fewer spells.  It's actually one of the most overpriced, useless, pieces of trash in the game.  Better items are the Normal Quicken rods, which turn 3 of your 6th-level spells into effective 10th-level spells.  Cheaper are Greater Extend or Greater Sculpt rods, which turn 3 of your 9th-level spells into effective 10th-level spells.  There's also the Reach rod, which takes those up to 11.  Tell me, how much Int does it take for a 17th level Wizard to cast 11th level spells?

At this point, I don't care what your opinion is.  You decided before even reading the OP that it was wrong, and made absurd, closed-minded responses to justify your position.

Ah the usual. I never troll/flame like what's in here. Heck I still use my original account at GitP. But apparently I'm o-so-controversial. So here goes:

This applies to mostly core, mostly unoptimized, and mostly "normalish" D&D campaigns: usual human wizards who are waiting to go archmage and actually play with a party, not faerie initiate necropolitan incantrixes who use clones 1-ups. Those guys max int because its all that helps them anymore. Everyone else has to split precious resources for unpleasant situations.

I think this describes it pretty well.  If you have a 28 PB, then the net benefit of increasing other stats before putting Intelligence to 18 are really high.  On the other hand, if you have a 36 PB, you'll run out of places to put those points, and still have enough left over to get 18 Int anyway.  With gold it's the same way, if you have all the gold you could ever want, then you're not making a choice between Int and Con/Dex/Wis, you just max it all.

That said, I don't think core or optimization level matters nearly as much as the available resources.

EDIT: I think this thread has run it's course.  I was hoping for a higher level of discussion than this, like maybe some discussion about where the cost/benefit breakpoints are, or examples of what a high Dex/Con Wizard can do better than a pure Int Wizard.