Zen Fundamentalist [base] (Magipunk)

[Wrex]

While we're at it, I think the ZF needs a new picture.

Here is a suggestion.

(click to show/hide)

The one he is using right now is the Pathfinder Monk. Ew, Pathfinder monk.

What are the elements from the current ZF that are essential? What can be axed?

~I really want to keep some sort of "apply X stat to Y bonus" as a part of this, since that was the original concept and inspiration; however, I think the current incarnation of the "Fundamentals" is a little unwieldy.  Maybe allow them to apply each stat bonus to one thing #/day?  And you can choose the combos on the fly?

Yeah, that could work. Or you could give it a pool of Inspiration points, but yours seems more flavorful.

~I think the "improve your low stats" thing is pretty awesome, and not game-breaking... it helps with MAD, particularly the XsYb thing above. One super-high stat is more problematic than a bunch of very good stats.

It's good, as long as they have things to do with each bonus, such as X to Y.

~I think zen mirror can go.  It was tacked on near the end, and just feels like too much to me.

Agreed. It's either useless or overpowered, and it makes no sense flavourwise or Mechanically.

~Martial maneuvers.  I think I'll go with the swordsage progression; need a recovery mechanic that isn't craptastic.

Works well. Using the one detailed below, however, would they be RANDOM manuvers, crusader style, or selected?

~Disciplines.  Agreed on Diamond Mind; flavor-wise, I think that Riven Hourglass, Coin's Edge, and Sublime Tapestry make the most sense.  Shadow Hand seems meh  thematically; Setting Sun could work.  If we go with the swordsage 6 disciplines I include both; if 5 or 4 only, then SH and then SS get the axe.

6 disciplines is fine, it gives enough variability for a class that is a melee hound. Would add full BAB though. Also, axe Zen Training. It's either useless, or negate another clas entirely. You might consider re-fluffing the class, actually. They can still be practitioners of a martial and mental discipline, but the current fluff makes them feel completely backwards with the rest of society. When I conceptualize this class in a more cyberpunk enviroment, Neo comes to mind. Fast, strong, agile, and an adherent of an esoteric philosophy, capable of killing things both with his fists, or his guns.

[sirpercival]

OK, revisions are done.  Check it!!

Any ideas for new ZF feats?

[Wrex]

OK, revisions are done.  Check it!!

Any ideas for new ZF feats?

Either dump all class skills, or give more skill points. Having them all, and like.... 5 points per level kinda sucks.


thinking of feats and ACF's now. Also, I woud make Coin's Edge use a concntration check or similar, rather than profession(Gambler), because that feels a little unflavourful.

[sirpercival]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the class skills.  I should probably get rid of the "All".  I'll do so.  And agreed on the Concentration check.

[Garryl]

Nice.

The new version of Fundamentals is a lot cleaner and simpler. It gets the point of crazy MAD across in a good way without cluttering things up with lots of tables and tons to remember. Fewer finicky bits, more fiddly bits. I'd restrict it to damage rolls and d20 rolls rather than any and all rolls, because some rolls just aren't meant to be boosted (such as Hit Die rolls and Zen Fundamentalist maneuver recovery rolls).

Maneuver recovery should probably say you can't recover a maneuver you used this round, or initiate a maneuver in the same round you recovered it. Or maybe that's the same turn, not the whole round. I need to check what the Swordsage and Warblade recovery methods say.

Not sure how I feel about the basic Zen Touch. It's fine once you get to the improved version, but round/level duration buffs shouldn't have standard action activation actions. It just makes them too hard to use in combat (too short a duration to prebuff, and too long an action to use in the heat of battle). Just make it a swift action, period. The improved and greater versions already grant improved range and a greater effect, so all is well. Might want to specify explicitly that you can't Zen Touch yourself.

"Timmy, can you show us on the doll where the bad man Zen Touched you?"

You know, it's a shame about how the Magipunk skills came out and the disciplines' key skills. It would have been so neat if each of the six Zen Fundamentalist disciplines' key skills was for a different ability score. I don't think there's any skill that uses Con any more, even. Concentration was the only one in 3.5, and it's been folded in with Autohypnosis under Wis, right?

[Wrex]

You know, it's a shame about how the Magipunk skills came out and the disciplines' key skills. It would have been so neat if each of the six Zen Fundamentalist disciplines' key skills was for a different ability score. I don't think there's any skill that uses Con any more, even. Concentration was the only one in 3.5, and it's been folded in with Autohypnosis under Wis, right?

You know, it could be changed to do that. Rather than just use key skills, each discipline could require an ability check, with a bonus equal to what you would get from max ranks in whatever skill would power it. even if there is no such skill.

[sirpercival]

Yes, that's correct that there is no more Con-based skill.

I actually really like Wrex's ability check idea, so I'll add that in as well, and make the edits Garryl suggested.

EDIT: Edits done.  How do we like this iteration?  G, does the pic meet your approval?

I think maybe a feat to make Zen Touch last minutes instead of rounds might be in order.

[Garryl]

How would that ability check thing work with other disciplines (such as through Martial Study, maneuver-granting items, or the homebrewer's favorite option of switching an existing discipline for a homebrewed one)?

[sirpercival]

How would that ability check thing work with other disciplines (such as through Martial Study, maneuver-granting items, or the homebrewer's favorite option of switching an existing discipline for a homebrewed one)?

Ah, good point.  I'll add a clarifying sentence.

[Nanshork]

It looks a whole lot more streamlined now, I like it.   

[Garryl]

Don't forget to modify the Shifter sub levels that may no longer be valid due to the revamp (like Imp. Uncanny Dodge coming at 9th instead of 12th). In fact, you might want to rewrite them entirely to fit better with the new image. Say, grant Tiger Claw instead of Shadow Hand or Riven Hourglass or something if you take the 1st level sub, for instance?

[phaedrusxy]

It looks a whole lot more streamlined now, I like it.   

I actually like it a lot less now... It's just another martial adept class, with some odd mechanics on recovery and a couple of other only mildly interesting or useful things. I think the original class was much more interesting. Sorry if that criticism sounds harsh... I just think this is a big downgrade, at least as far as uniqueness.

[Wrex]

It looks a whole lot more streamlined now, I like it.   

I actually like it a lot less now... It's just another martial adept class, with some odd mechanics on recovery and a couple of other only mildly interesting or useful things. I think the original class was much more interesting. Sorry if that criticism sounds harsh... I just think this is a big downgrade, at least as far as uniqueness.

Less unique, yes. Playable? It is now. As cool as the last might have been, it was all sorts of clunky and/or broken.

[sirpercival]

Don't forget to modify the Shifter sub levels that may no longer be valid due to the revamp (like Imp. Uncanny Dodge coming at 9th instead of 12th). In fact, you might want to rewrite them entirely to fit better with the new image. Say, grant Tiger Claw instead of Shadow Hand or Riven Hourglass or something if you take the 1st level sub, for instance?

Will do.  Question: Does Shifter still make the most sense for this?  Because I could move Shifter to Morphling and have Changeling be for Powerbard, and have something else take this (though I have no idea what).

It looks a whole lot more streamlined now, I like it.   

I actually like it a lot less now... It's just another martial adept class, with some odd mechanics on recovery and a couple of other only mildly interesting or useful things. I think the original class was much more interesting. Sorry if that criticism sounds harsh... I just think this is a big downgrade, at least as far as uniqueness.

There were definitely a lot of unique things for the previous version... but that was because I had a vague idea for a prestige class, then expanded it into a base class by throwing a bunch of class features at the wall and seeing what sticks.  What I ended up with was something that was kinda cool, but didn't feel finished, and most of it was either minor or overpowered.

It was essentially a multiclass class.  No one would be interested in it 1-20.  This is much more thematically and mechanically consistent.

[Wrex]

Don't forget to modify the Shifter sub levels that may no longer be valid due to the revamp (like Imp. Uncanny Dodge coming at 9th instead of 12th). In fact, you might want to rewrite them entirely to fit better with the new image. Say, grant Tiger Claw instead of Shadow Hand or Riven Hourglass or something if you take the 1st level sub, for instance?

Will do.  Question: Does Shifter still make the most sense for this?  Because I could move Shifter to Morphling and have Changeling be for Powerbard, and have something else take this (though I have no idea what).

Buoaman (SP?) From manual of the Planes. Or Githerzai or something.

[sirpercival]

I could also do something like put Tiefling or Dwarf on ZF and do Psykin or Mentalist with Elan or Kalashtar.

[Garryl]

You can have multiple races with sub levels for the same class, you know. It won't make the universe implode. Although it will make Mongrelfolk implicitly stronger due to having more options. Which is part of the point of the race, isn't it?

[sirpercival]

Yes, but I was instead trying to get as many races to have sub levels as possible.

Anyway, let's think about it.  Shifter should probably go on Morphling.  Tiefling should go on Planeswalker or something else.  Drow should go on Planeswalker.  What race fits the ZF the best??

[Wrex]

Yes, but I was instead trying to get as many races to have sub levels as possible.

Anyway, let's think about it.  Shifter should probably go on Morphling.  Tiefling should go on Planeswalker or something else.  Drow should go on Planeswalker.  What race fits the ZF the best??

Races with monastic traditions, pehaps elves. Buomman from PLH are pretty much more human githzerai,but the whole "must sing may not speak" thing would make a refluffed one better as a powerbard. And of course actual githzerai would work, but they have a LA, if that matters to you.

[Garryl]

Illumian, maybe?