Let's Talk About Lycanthropes

[EjoThims]

You keep your special qualities actually, but you do lose the special attacks, which I hadn't noticed before.  Pity.

Nerf's not quite as bad I remembered then... Still, no reason to take Feral if you can't justify keeping pounce, rake, and rend.

Though you could try to make a case that the "new form" is your hybrid form, which has and benefits from the animal HD and those HD are what grants the pounce, rake, rend, etc. 

Hrmm... That would be an interesting compromise... Argue that Feral is limited, but because of that you can still use it...

Wait... "The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form."

You would auto lose your darkvision and fast heal going that route... Just make sure you're aware.

[Ithamar]

Why would you lose it?  You'll likely be in hybrid form most of the time, and those forms are what grant it (under this compromise).

Though honestly, if you're paying this much LA and HD for these abilities, your DM is a jerk if he doesn't let you get away with having darkvision and whatnot no matter what form you're in.

[EjoThims]

Never mind. I swapped stuff around in my head. It's all good.

[Endarire]

I'm curious how this werethingy compares to a Druid just Wild Shaping into something similar, an Egoist with metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer, or a Warblade (not Hood) specced for high damage in melee.

Thoughts?

[AyeGill]

I'm curious how this werethingy compares to a Druid just Wild Shaping into something similar, an Egoist with metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer, or a Warblade (not Hood) specced for high damage in melee.

Thoughts?

Probably fairly inferior as far as shapechanging options go. But think of the badass factor, man!

[phaedrusxy]

I'm curious how this werethingy compares to a <snip> Warblade (not Hood) specced for high damage in melee.

Thoughts?

You can do both, in this case. My were-dire badger has warblade levels, but I focused more on defense with the saving throw counters and Iron Heart Surge.

[zook1shoe]

I'm curious how this werethingy compares to a Druid just Wild Shaping into something similar, an Egoist with metamorphosis and Metamorphic Transfer, or a Warblade (not Hood) specced for high damage in melee.

Thoughts?

Probably fairly inferior as far as shapechanging options go. But think of the badass factor, man!

I think, in many ways, better. You can have the paragon template on animal part, and get much more out of it than a Druid or Egoist could dream of

Not to say overall neither better... It only applies to the changing forms aspect.

[Ithamar]

A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

You sure about that paragon template thing? 

[zook1shoe]

So animal/hybrid form isn't assumed, but you still gain most of the benefits, such as +13 to your save DCs, bonus epic feat, etc.

There is a spell, Strength of the Beast?  That gives you many of the abilities of your base animal

Edit: actually, since the monster's text overrides that part of alternate form. it says...
 

A lycanthrope can assume the form of a specific animal (as indicated in its entry).

The specific animal is the type of lycanthropy it is... As shown in the specific entries, such as Werewolf lord, etc.

Nowhere in the text of the template, does it say "non-templated" animal.

It does not specify only a "non-advanced and/or non-templated" animal, it only requires an predatory or scavenger-type animal, which a paragon wolf is, along with a wolf or bear.

[Ithamar]

Why would you gain some of the benefits of a template that only applies to an animal form that you cannot actually / legally assume?

Edit:  It does not need to specify a non-templated animal as the base form since Alternate Form does not allow you to assume the form of templated creatures.  If you really want to quibble over what the lycan form does and does not say versus what the Alternate Form ability does and does not say, you get weirdness like True Seeing not revealing your true form because the lycanthrope entry does not make any mention of True Seeing working.  Etc.

The ability is called Alternate Form, thus all the regular rules for Alternate Form apply.  Anything else belongs in TO, in my opinion.

[zook1shoe]

Why would you gain some of the benefits of a template that only applies to an animal form that you cannot actually / legally assume?

See my edit

[Ithamar]

See mine. 

[X-Codes]

If you're considering Brown Bear, then you should at least look at Dire Wolverine.

Also, Lycanthrope -> Feral -> Animal HD are turned into Monstrous Humanoid HD -> You have higher BAB and awesome Reflex and Will saves.  For just 1 LA more, it's kind of a no-brainer.

EDIT: Because it's tha thang to do.  Also, Murder of Crows.

[Lycanthromancer]

Reading this thread makes my ears itch, like someone is talking about me in nearly every post.

I have to double-check to see that, no, that isn't the case.

[EjoThims]

Were-swarms, while wholly RaW and totally awesome are, imo, a bit on the extreme.

I mean, what, exactly, is the hybrid form of a were-murderofcrows?

And what happens when you get dispersed?

[X-Codes]

I was just putting it out there for consideration.

[snakeman830]

I mean, what, exactly, is the hybrid form of a were-murderofcrows?

Clearly.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

What is that I don't even...

[X-Codes]

LoL, I think.  Don't know for sure because those asses don't support macs, yet.   

[snakeman830]

LoL, I think.  Don't know for sure because those asses don't support macs, yet.   

Yes to the first part, not really to the second.  The Mac version has been in open beta for a while now.