FOOD!

[dman11235]

You can't find juniper berries?  I thought they were pretty common...

@Mono: The chicken thing is overblown, and the fishing thing is....well, you're almost right.  It depends on the fish and the area the fish comes from.  There are some fish that are fine to take (off the top of my head most tuna is sustainable, and then the more rare fishes are almost certainly sustainable, if you're worried get farm raised), and there are some that aren't (free-range salmon isn't that hot, and the rest of the tunas aren't either).

As far as chicken goes, if it's farm raised, there's no problem really.  I know this sounds odd (get the industrialized one!  It's less bad!), but it's complicated.  See, the chickens aren't really being harmed, and the mutation rate isn't any higher than a simple increased birth rate would be.  The only problem is that they are usually butchered early on in life (after a few months), so they don't have much flavor.

[Monotremeancer]

bhu: And funny shrooms?   Well, just roll with your personal favourite then.

dman: Mutations aren't really the problem, it's what they are selected for (there's enough genetic variation within most species to change them quite a bit). But I still eat chicken from time and then I buy those that have been raised under fairly good conditions. As for fish, I really (really!) dislike the taste of it, so even if I could feel comfortable with supporting the general industry (I know of several species that are harvested at a sustainable rate) I really wouldn't eat it.

[radionausea]

My particular reason:

A sentient being has desires and a sense of self existing over time.
It is immoral to end the life of a sentient being unnecessarily.
Animals are sentient.
Eating animals is unnecessary.
Killing animals for food is immoral.

There are some animals where it might be argued that they don't have sentience but I'd much rather weigh the scales in favour of them having sentience and avoid unnecessary death, especially because I have no biological need to eat meat whatsoever.

There are many reasons a person might espouse on this (environmental impact etc.).  I've never seen one 'collapse' at the first sign of scrutiny.

I've never been an in your face, preachy vegetarian, I go to restaurants with friends where they have massive slabs of steak, I don't force my opinion on other people. The opposite has never been true though.  I've lost count of the amount of times people have aggressively asked me why I don't eat meat, as though it is offensive to them that I don't.  Surely the person who omits to cause harm doesn't have to justify themselves?

[radionausea]

Arguments that don't collapse easily are:

Peter Singer's preference utilitarianism
Tom Regan's deontological animal rights
John Livingston's rebuttal of Felenz
Donna Harraway's border theory

[Monotremeancer]

I've never been able to buy the immoral argument. There are several other species that could survive from non-animal foodstuff alone, yet I've never heard anyone say that primates in a zoo should only be fed plants (maybe some zoos do that, I dunno) because it's not morally correct to feed them other animals.

Vegetarianism itself is not something I feel should be discouraged however, quite the opposite. It's healthier, less energy consuming and it uses up less space. Those are pretty solid arguments to me.

[dman11235]

Vegetarianism is not healthier.  We are omnivorous, and about the same as black bears.  Black bears mostly eat fruit and veggies, but do eat meat when they want to, because there is a lot more protein in meat, as well as useful fats, vitamins, and minerals.  It's not unhealthy, but it's not healthier.  It's just different.  If you are a vegetarian, and have been for years, then it will be unhealthy to just start eating meat again, but that's a different problem (your digestive tract can't handle it).  But because meat is loaded with much more energy per gram than just about any plant matter, it's the most efficient way for us to get our energy needs.

I don't see it as causing harm.  It's just life to me.  I mean, I can see why you view it like that, and I understand (I'm fine with it, btw, it's your choice, I don't really care), but to me, meat is delicious.  I'm not going to give that up just because some animals have to die.  Besides, there's some things you just can't cook without meat, and food is glorious.  Animals just don't have the sentience with a few exceptions (there is a test, and so far very few animals, and no staple food animals, have passed it) for it to be immoral to me.

[radionausea]

The 'test' is, presumably the mirror test and you're right, not many animals have passed that.  Nor do human infants or a lot of elderly people with dementia. That isn't a test of sentience though. It is well established that animals do have sentience (it's even in EU law). 

In other news, I have an absolutely beautiful vegetable and paneer ceylon slowly cooking away   (not to be confused with me eating an Artificial Intelligence, that might raise more issues)

[Halinn]

Stuff like sentience and intelligence is notoriously hard to define. Personally, I enjoy the taste of meat, so I eat it. I do not even care for the ethics, though if pressed I could make up some seemingly coherent argument as to why it isn't unethical (but the truth would remain that I don't really care).

Does anyone have some good, simple recipes for soups?

[InnaBinder]

Does anyone have some good, simple recipes for soups?

Here's a tasty seafood soup.  You can substitute shellfish for the whitefish if allergies aren't an issue; I swap the celery for jalapeno because I'm a lunatic like that.

[dman11235]

The mirror test was a primitive version, yes.  But sentience is defined as an awareness of self.  Undoubtedly, insects do not have this.  Undoubtedly, humans do.  So find the point in between on the scale of advancement that satisfies you, and eat things below it .

Basically, it boils down to this: animals are not intelligent enough (in most circumstances) for me to justify it being an immoral act.  Notable exceptions: pigeons, dolphins, octopi, and raccoons.  Then there are some I see as not-food, so I won't eat those, things like cats and dogs.  Pig is delicious, cow is delicious, chicken is delicious, fish are delicious.  Shellfish are not that delicious.....except some shrimp, and clams that are in a chowder.  Wild game is usually delicious (duck, turkey, deer, moose (MOOSE), buffalo, etc.).

EDIT: fish+soup=bleagh.  They get so tough it's disgusting.....I prefer my fish cooked over dry heat (grill, flat top) or in oil.

[InnaBinder]

EDIT: fish+soup=bleagh.  They get so tough it's disgusting.....I prefer my fish cooked over dry heat (grill, flat top) or in oil.

Thanks for encouraging me to post recipes I enjoy.   

[radionausea]

Does anyone have some good, simple recipes for soups?

Tomato and coconut soup.

(click to show/hide)

4 large tomatoes (roughly chopped or diced, makes no odds)
1 cup of grated fresh coconut
4 tbsp of coconut milk
2 cups of water
Tablespoon of mustard seeds
Dried crushed chillies/chillie seed (optional for serving)
2 tbsp of ghee (or butter if you can't get ghee)
2-3 dried chillies (don't chop or smash, keep 'em whole)
fresh curry leaves (12 or so)
salt and sugar to taste

1. Boil water.
2. Throw in the tomatoes, grated coconut, salt and sugar.
3. Wait for it to start boiling again. Then take off the heat and leave to stand for 15 minutes
4. When it's cooled a bit hand blend it into a delicious paste.
5. Heat the ghee in a pan.
6. Throw in the whole chillies.
7. When the brown throw in the mustard seeds.
8. When they start popping throw in the curry leaves
9. stand the fuck back so you don;t get burning ghee splattered in your face when you throw in the fresh leaves
10. Mix in the coconut/tomato paste from earlier
11. Simmer until it's how thick you want it
12. swirl in the coconut milk
13. Serve and sprinkle on the crushed chilli if you want

Honestly, so delicious. 

edit - makes 2 large bowls or 4 starter bowls

[bhu]

EDIT: fish+soup=bleagh.  They get so tough it's disgusting.....I prefer my fish cooked over dry heat (grill, flat top) or in oil.

My fish stew has never turned out tough...

[veekie]

EDIT: fish+soup=bleagh.  They get so tough it's disgusting.....I prefer my fish cooked over dry heat (grill, flat top) or in oil.

My fish stew has never turned out tough...

When I get it wrong it seems more likely to go all crumbly and the fish is now fish flakes.

[dman11235]

I just don't like boiled fish....

Usually, if the fish is strong enough to stay together (sometimes it's too flaky, things like tilapia, salmon, and certain tunas are like this), to me it just turns out tough and chewy.

[bhu]

Maybe it's cause the fish stew I use has a lot of acids in it...

[Jackinthegreen]

I have no beef with vegetarians.

As far as soups go, I recall the combination of carrot, celery, and onion as a base is a good start.  The Wikipedia article has me wondering if I should try a soup sometime.

And dammit, I'm hungry again!  *goes to forage*

[radionausea]

I have no beef with vegetarians.

As far as soups go, I recall the combination of carrot, celery, and onion as a base is a good start.  The Wikipedia article has me wondering if I should try a soup sometime.

And dammit, I'm hungry again!  *goes to forage*

really, really finely diced carrot, celery and onion is the base of pretty much all french soups.

[Monotremeancer]

Cream, white wine, vegetable broth and asparagus makes a great soup and is really yummy

[dman11235]

When I make soup, I usually just throw stuff in and see if it works.  It usually does.  And yes, the mirepoix of carrots, onions, and celery is my base.  I'll usually add in beef, a soup pasta (orzo usually), and more veggies.  And spices of course, but that's usually with the broth instead when I make that.  But southern France is usually my style.

As far as broths go, you don't want to finely dice the veggies.  Otherwise, they'll fall through the strainer when you strain it, and you don't want that (just chunk them, and leave are usually fine to keep on there, don't even bother peeling the carrots).  When you chop the veggies for the soup (these are new veggies), you want to chop them for eating instead, so it doesn't matter how fine they are.