Melee Necromancer Cleric build help

[bishop]

Wanted some insight/help on a build I am thinking of and thought maybe some people here would have that help

I am wanting to play a necromancer type character in my upcoming game. The whole party is going evil but I think I might be the only undead, if not, I don't think many others will be. I was thinking of going potentially a more melee route with this necromancer but still having the casting option. I don't want to have hordes of minions, but would prefer to stay with several stronger ones as the levels go by to avoid bogging down combat.

Now that that is out of the way here are the other circumstances:

-The DM is okay with a decently high power level as long as its not utterly game breaking/and RP'ed well.
-Starting at level 5, 32 pt buy, 6k gold
-all 3.5 books, no Tome of Battle/Magic and no BoED

Thats all of the pertinent information I can think of. Here is my potential build I am thinking of going and I am just looking at how to optimize the first 9 levels since that is when I will most likely be losing caster levels if I go with the PrC's I'm looking (open to suggestions) since after that choices are more straightforward.

Cloistered Cleric 4(could be normal, would lose out on Knowledge Devotion Feat)
Ordained Champion 2
Bone Knight 3 (not required to get ranks in ride for pre reqs)

Feats (2 Flaws/Human)
- Extend Spell (F)
- Persist Spell (F)
- DMM persist (H)
- Corpsecrafter (1)
- Destructive Retribution (explained below) (3)
- (OPEN) (6)
- Holy Warrior (9)

Domains
-War
-Knowledge
-Deathbound
-Time/travel/undeath with Ordained Champion bonus Domain
- Would pick up one of the above with most likely a contemplative level (optional if it bogs stuff down)

I think with this build I am going to have some strong melee presence once I hit 9th but behind 2 caster levels.  The idea behind the corpsecrafter feats is that this guy would have undead rats on/around him frequently and not mentioned yet is that I will most likely go necropolitan at 3rd. Bite a head off a rat and get healed. It was my way of getting free out of combat healing.

I am looking for suggestions and critiques/flaws. I have looked at doing some stuff with southern magician and maybe picking up arcane disciple for other domains spells (spell domain>anyspell>wraithstrike). I have also read some stuff on maybe doing some feats to lower my metamagic costs. Also open to being told how awesome dread necromancer could be, and or other PrC's which would do some cool stuff.

Thanks for any help and sorry if I put this in the wrong forum.

[Rebel7284]

Last I checked, bone knight gives undead-like immunities.  Why do you need it at all if you're already undead?  Losing caster levels seems bad.  Also, you really stop caring about your BAB once you get 4th level spells.

If you are using a custom/no deity, I suggest getting free persist spell and extra turning from domains.

For maximum power, take that spell that gives you cantrips and enter Dweomerkeeper.  That way, you can cast supernatural Animate Dead without having to pay for the gems.

[phaedrusxy]

For maximum power, take that spell feat that gives you cantrips and enter Dweomerkeeper.  That way, you can cast supernatural Animate Dead without having to pay for the gems.

FTFY. It's called Magical Training, IIRC. I don't remember a spell that gives you arcane cantrips.

[zugschef]

have you thought of the dread necromancer?

[bishop]

I had seen a similar thought in terms of the bone knight and going undead and I must have read the wrong section because I do gain all the immunities from that.

Magical Training is a good idea and I have played around with going Dweomerkeeper and looks to be a great way to do it.

I am open to the idea of a dread necro, but I would like to see it would be built to be a melee gish version of the necromancer if that makes sense.

Thanks for the input so far.

[X-Codes]

 DN's are not really melee.  My suggestion is to get a rebuking level of at least 6 so you can command shadows.  Those things are always useful.  Also, OC is good for spontaneous War domain spells.  Can you eventually quicken them for free, too? I'm afb right now.

Also, get more domains.  Go with War, Planning, and Knowledge Domain at 1, then use classes like Divine Oracle to get domains with good spells an dthen trade the abilities out for feats at OC 1.

[SorO_Lost]

Off the top of my head? I go nothing. I wanted to say RKV but I can't so how about I just finish/detail you're presented build some more?

(click to show/hide)

Human - +1 skill point per level, +4 at 1st level. Bonus feat.
PB 32: Str 14, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 8. ~Cha isn't a big deal, more on this later.

Class CL 18/20
Cloistered Cleric 1 - Planning^D,  War^D, Knowledge^D:B, Weapon Focus(w/e)^B, Extend Spell^B, Persist Spell^F, Knowledge Devotion^F, Divine Metamagic^H, Corpsecrafter^1st, Skills: UMD, Knowledge(religion) and any five other knowledge skills.
Cloistered Cleric 2 - trade advancement on one or two skills for Collector of Stories (+5 to knowledge checks on mobs).
Cloistered Cleric 3 - Nimble Bones^3rd.
Cloistered Cleric 4 - N/A
Ordained Champion 1 - Undeath^D, Extra Turning^B, lose Knowledge^D for being worthless at this point for Power Attack^B.
Ordained Champion 2 - Diehard^B, Improved Bullrush^6th
Ordained Champion 3 - Obtain Spell Channeling (note errata prevents you from using this with Geas, but still pretty handy).
Bone Knight 1 - N/A
Bone Knight 2 - Shock Trooper^9th, you are now a full blown charger with the option to spell&smite with single attacks.
Bone Knight 3 - Undead you control gain Turn Resistance equal to your Charisma Mod.
Bone Knight 4 - Immunity to nonlethal damage, now to obtain Regeneration...
Contemplative 1 - Spell^D, grants access to Anyspell, Holy Warrior^12th
Bone Knight 5 - 1/day Animate Dead that produces enslaved intelligent armor/weapon using zombies (3hd per but they use items!).
Bone Knight 6 - Bonecrafted weapon deals +1d6 damage, meh but anything extra is nice.
Bone Knight 7 - Any or Extra Turning.^15th
Bone Knight 8 - Obtain 99% of undead immunities while still remaining alive.
Bone Knight 9 - N/A
Bone Knight 10 - Any or Extra Turning^18th, SA immunity granted via armor.
Prestige Paladin (adapted in Tyranny or Slaughter) 1 - Obtain Paladin's Spell list (rhino's rush, rightous aura, zealot's pact, etc).
Any 1 - W/E

Items
Battle Bridle: obtain Mounted Combat.
Riding Boots: obtain Ride-By Attack.
Lance of Faerun: obtain Spirited Charge (for charging on your summoned mount).
Eager Vigilant Halberd: doubles smite damage when used, Eager gives you Quickdraw with it (for not charging).
---
Nightstick: +4 Turn/day.
Reliquary Holy Symbol: +3 Turn/day.
Perfect's Vestment: +1 Turn/day.
Icon of Ravenloft: +4 to Turn Undead's level.
Scepter of the Netherworld: +3 to Turn Undead's level.
Phylactery of Undead Turning: +4 to Turn Undead's level.
Mace of the Darkchildren: +6 Profane to turning checks & +2 to Turn Undead's level, no required being held implied, add Eagar if DM says otherwise.
~+8 turns/day, +6 to checks, & +13 to your effective Turn Undead level.
---
+5/Collision/Valorous: Weapon upgrades, apply as desired.
Gauntlets of War: +3 to melee damage rolls.
Armbands of Might: +2 to damage rolls if using Power Attack at 2 or greater.
Masterwork Tool: +2 circumstantial to a skill check, get one for all knowledge skills.
~Easy up to +15 to damage with items, easy +14 min on most knowledge checks, +9 damage with holy warrior, +40 to PA with no loss to attack rolls, +66 with smite, +150 channeling Harm or charge with x5 damage, really great hit chance (see below).

Spells Turn Undead/day: 25 = 3 (base) + 2 (14 cha after +6 item) + 12 (feat) + 8 (items).
Divine Power: BAB=HD, +6 enhancement to str.
Greater Anyspell(friendly fire): Immunity to all ranged attacks. <- puts the melee in ranged.
Anyspell(wraithstrike): all melee attacks are touch attacks. <- pretty much never miss.
~4 left over to Smite. See? Charisma wasn't all that important. ~Righteous Aura is worth +2 more too.

[bishop]

I like that build you have there and may have to look at it further. For now the DM and I have put some other together but he and I are at a sticking point with Necropolitan.

Do I get any of my HD as d12 or are they that of the class that I am leveling say d6 for any cloistered cleric levels?

Thanks for the help.

[phaedrusxy]

I like that build you have there and may have to look at it further. For now the DM and I have put some other together but he and I are at a sticking point with Necropolitan.

Do I get any of my HD as d12 or are they that of the class that I am leveling say d6 for any cloistered cleric levels?

Thanks for the help.

All current and future hit dice are converted to d12s, as with most undead templates, including lich, vampire, etc. This includes class hit dice.

[bishop]

My DM seems to think that those are like monster level hit dices or only apply to NPCs and not PC's. Any idea how to convinve him otherwise?

[linklord231]

Remind him that you lose your Constitution score, and thus have no bonus HP for having a high Con.  Declaring that HD gained by class levels do not benefit from the higher HD size would unfairly hurt your total health.

Note that every other template that turns you into an Undead says that ALL Hit Dice get upp'd to d12's.  This includes Liches, Skeletons, Zombies, Ghosts, Vampires, Bone Creatures, Corpse Creatures...
It's more than likely that he read the entry for Zombies and Skeletons that says "drop all HD gained from class levels, then increase the remaining to d12."  Point out this line in the entry for those creatures, then point out something like Vampires that specify ALL HD, then re-read the Necropolitan entry. 

[SorO_Lost]

Con score or no Con score is more based on what you plan to do and at what levels.

Example
Pb32 lets you obtain two 18s, say Wis/Con. +2 Inherent & +6 Enhance later the living Cleric is gaining 12.5 HP per level (253.5 max).
The dead Cleric took Wis/Cha and used Corpsecrafter & Desecrate for +4 HP/lvl and uses d12s rather than d8s or 10.5 HP per level (223.5 max).

Later on the dead Cleric hits level 17 and for sure through Rainbow Falls runs Shapechange all day without having to Persist it, say he turns into a 12 headed Hydra. As written Shapechange does not alter your HP, therefor Corpsecrafter/Desecrate are not dropped, nor do they time out as the only trigger on undead creature and not later transmutation or walking out of the area of effect. However, as a result of losing your Undead Type you reobtain a Con score. This means that when you put a Belt of Con +6, your have a valid ability score to change and those effects to award you HP. That's +60 HP extra to the undead guy for 283.5. +2 Inherent? 303.5.

That difference is even more comparable if we were talking about the Wizard's d4 here but still. In a limited scope going Undead gives more HP on top of having a high base charisma score. But Shapechanging out of Undead make you lose the immunities that you went Undead in the first place, where as Bone Knight's Class feature is maintained no matter your form making it a superior option that debating on undeath or not, take the best of both.

[bishop]

Game is finally starting next weekend and currently I am a Necropolitan Human Cleric 4 and will be going Ordained Champion into a modified evil version of Radiant Servant of Pelor and I am trading a few of the metamagic feats out to get Animate Undead as SNA.

Feats are as follows
Extend Spell (Flaw)
Persist Spell (flaw)
DMM persist (human)
Corpsecrafter (1st)
Destructive Retribution (3rd)

Domains
Knowledge (cloistered, will be traded out for TWF when I hit OC)
Spell (open to other suggestions but wanted wraithstrike from anyspell) (power will be traded out Power Attack when I hit OC)
War (qualify for OC and will pick up Deathbound to qualify for houseruled PRC)
Undeath (when I hit 5th level of houseruled PRC)

The homebrewed Deity has dual wield short swords so thats what I get. After doing rough math with several of the bonuses from ordained champion it looks like twf actually comes out ahead. but I could be wrong, in fact I probably am becuase everything else seems to favor 2 handers.

My question now is what equipment should I look. I have 6k to start with. Thanks for any suggestions.

Oh the other big question is that the party has a bard, will I be affected (effected) by his buffs if they are mind effects which as a necro I am immune to?

[sirpercival]

Planning Domain gives Extend for free.

[bishop]

If I went planning it would replace Spell, my 6th lvl feat would be Chain spell which I could pick up early but then I lose Anyspell and Greater Anyspell. I initially looked at Planning multiple times but it came down to whether or not I needed the free feat and whether or not the spells were worth losing for it. Spell domain came out ahead but I am open to suggestions on why it would be better.

[SorO_Lost]

If I went planning it would replace Spell, my 6th lvl feat would be Chain spell which I could pick up early but then I lose Anyspell and Greater Anyspell. I initially looked at Planning multiple times but it came down to whether or not I needed the free feat and whether or not the spells were worth losing for it. Spell domain came out ahead but I am open to suggestions on why it would be better.

Build I posted in the spoiler has both Planning and Spell for Domains. Also War, Undeath, and even Knowledge when it mattered as well.

Perhaps take a second look? You may have room for Contemplative's bonus domain.