How can a lazy DM challenge an optimized party?

[RobbyPants]

Another option: play lower-level games.

Ogres don't have shit to keep track of, and yet they're one of the scariest CR 3 monsters there is.  Class-leveled Orcs can also have a high ratio of lethality to complexity.

3.0 was even worse at this! IIRC, ogres had pretty much identical stats and were CR 2! Orcs also wielded great axes by default (not the MM picture), which would deal slightly more damage on average (they have a higher Str in 3.5), but the crit was a guaranteed kill at low levels. About one in forty attacks from an orc was a Death No Save.

I'm getting semi off topic, but to bring it back, simply swapping equipment on low level monsters can seriously change how hard they are to fight.

[Basket Burner]

Ogre crit is 4d8+14 (average 32) with a greatclub. Level 3 PCs range from 15-27 HP. In most cases it doesn't make a difference if they use a greataxe or a greatclub, crit = die. The axe does do 1.5 higher average damage I believe and fighting parties that are a level lower of course means they have lower HP but the crit's not a factor.

For orcs crit also means die... but greataxes do it 5% of the time and falchions do it 15% of the time. The version change isn't doing any favors.

[lans]

Ogre crit is 4d8+14 (average 32) with a greatclub. Level 3 PCs range from 15-27 HP. In most cases it doesn't make a difference if they use a greataxe or a greatclub, crit = die. The axe does do 1.5 higher average damage I believe and fighting parties that are a level lower of course means they have lower HP but the crit's not a factor.

Your ignoring the 0 to -9 buffer that characters have. Its more accurate to say crit=out of the fight, maybe dead. Your hp range is a bit off, 34 is the highest for barbarians/warblades, and arguably crusaders would count as having 35 due to their soak ability.

[Basket Burner]

Ogre crit is 4d8+14 (average 32) with a greatclub. Level 3 PCs range from 15-27 HP. In most cases it doesn't make a difference if they use a greataxe or a greatclub, crit = die. The axe does do 1.5 higher average damage I believe and fighting parties that are a level lower of course means they have lower HP but the crit's not a factor.

Your ignoring the 0 to -9 buffer that characters have. Its more accurate to say crit=out of the fight, maybe dead. Your hp range is a bit off, 34 is the highest for barbarians/warblades, and arguably crusaders would count as having 35 due to their soak ability.

15 HP = Wizard = dead.
19 HP = Rogue = dead.
23 HP = Cleric = dies next round or with even slightly above average damage.
27 HP = Fighter = only one KOed with decent time to react... and dies next round anyways from the next attack.

A standard Warblade has 31, same scenario as the Fighter. That leaves only the raging Barbarian as potentially not OHKOed... but then that means you aren't taking Whirling Frenzy and why the hell would you take Barbarian levels and not Whirling Frenzy? That's like 14 Str melees. You just don't do it.

[X-Codes]

You also don't do 14 Con melees.  16 Con is 3 more HP at this level, meaning that d12 types stay conscious.  Also, monsters never attack someone that's already unconscious when there's someone else shooting arrows and spells at them.  It is so far beyond retarded to do something like that, not even Mindless creatures would do it unless they were somehow created without self-preservation instincts.

BB, it's clear that you don't play melees because you think they're terrible, so just don't claim to be any kind of expert on how to play them.  Ever.

[RobbyPants]

The 0-9 buffer comes into play a bit more with the difference between a 3.0 MM orc and a 3.5 MM orc, but even still, that's a single niche comparison and I'd be rather pedantic to push the point.

I'll agree that the 3x crit frequency of the falchion compared to the great axe makes it more likely for the orcs to drop people in 3.5, even if the cleric and fighter aren't killed outright. Being one-shotted three times as often, with a noticeable chance of death is worse than being one-hit killed a third as often.

[phaedrusxy]

A fair amount of outsiders above CR10 can be improved just by changing their feats to be not-awful and handing them one of the reach weapons they're proficient with but never seem to be used in default stat blocks.

+1. Hell, with a lot of them, if you just look at their abilities and come up with non-retarded tactics that take advantage of them, they can go from mediocre to brutalizing. Look at the vrock, for example. It can fly, and has telekinesis, greater teleport, and mirror image at will.

But its stat block says:

Despite their advantage in mobility, the vrocks’ deep love of battle frequently leads them into melee combats against heavy odds.

Why the hell would it ever get into melee? It can fly around with a bunch of mirror images (to foil arrows and spells), "nuke" the crap out of enemies from nearly 1000 feet in the air, and Teleport away if they close the distance somehow. True Seeing won't even help, because the range on that is only 120 feet.

Changing its feats around can help even more, of course, like giving it Mindsight and Quicken SLA (Mirror Image), for example. Add a few cross-class ranks in Use Magic Device, give it some wands, and use that Teleport to escape to heal up and buff between skirmishes, and it has jumped up several CR values for sure.

[Basket Burner]

The 0-9 buffer comes into play a bit more with the difference between a 3.0 MM orc and a 3.5 MM orc, but even still, that's a single niche comparison and I'd be rather pedantic to push the point.

I'll agree that the 3x crit frequency of the falchion compared to the great axe makes it more likely for the orcs to drop people in 3.5, even if the cleric and fighter aren't killed outright. Being one-shotted three times as often, with a noticeable chance of death is worse than being one-hit killed a third as often.

Once someone drops unconscious it's fair to say they die next round if the enemy isn't killed as it's simple to make sure that they stay down (and in the Cleric's case he's at -9 from an average crit, so he dies next round regardless).

Really though you're safer if he's using the greataxe. You'd be even safer if he's using a scythe, as then even less happens the vast majority of the time whereas a OHKO is still a OHKO.

Especially at low levels though just being killed by straight up output is much more likely than being haxed to death.

[RobbyPants]

Once someone drops unconscious it's fair to say they die next round if the enemy isn't killed

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, unless the guy hits exactly -9 HP. Given a falchion crit (average of 18 damage from a MM orc), it will kill pretty much any wizard, almost every rogue, and put all the d8 HD and higher well into the negatives.

Still, other than ending up right at -9 HP, I don't see where you're getting this from.

[ImperatorK]

Once someone drops unconscious it's fair to say they die next round if the enemy isn't killed

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, unless the guy hits exactly -9 HP. Given a falchion crit (average of 18 damage from a MM orc), it will kill pretty much any wizard, almost every rogue, and put all the d8 HD and higher well into the negatives.

Still, other than ending up right at -9 HP, I don't see where you're getting this from.

The enemy will kill them. But that's the thing - when a PC fall unconscious he's going to get ignored, because he's not a threat, and the enemy will focus on the threats, which are the conscious PCs.

[veekie]

Only if they are in it for the 'fuck you value', an enemy interested in surviving the conflict can and should go after the ones still standing, you can always stab the unconscious ones after you kill or knock them all out. Who knows, blood loss might do it for you with luck.

[ImperatorK]

Only if they are in it for the 'fuck you value', an enemy interested in surviving the conflict can and should go after the ones still standing, you can always stab the unconscious ones after you kill or knock them all out. Who knows, blood loss might do it for you with luck.

Yeah, I edited my above post.

[Basket Burner]

Once someone drops unconscious it's fair to say they die next round if the enemy isn't killed

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, unless the guy hits exactly -9 HP. Given a falchion crit (average of 18 damage from a MM orc), it will kill pretty much any wizard, almost every rogue, and put all the d8 HD and higher well into the negatives.

Still, other than ending up right at -9 HP, I don't see where you're getting this from.

Once they are down they are prone and have an effective Dex of 0. Hit on a 2, doing at least 9 damage is no problem. The alternative is they just get healed and get up again. Especially if there are multiple enemies around, and even level 1s fight these guys in pairs at least.

[Kajhera]

Once someone drops unconscious it's fair to say they die next round if the enemy isn't killed

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, unless the guy hits exactly -9 HP. Given a falchion crit (average of 18 damage from a MM orc), it will kill pretty much any wizard, almost every rogue, and put all the d8 HD and higher well into the negatives.

Still, other than ending up right at -9 HP, I don't see where you're getting this from.

Once they are down they are prone and have an effective Dex of 0. Hit on a 2, doing at least 9 damage is no problem. The alternative is they just get healed and get up again. Especially if there are multiple enemies around, and even level 1s fight these guys in pairs at least.

Mm, getting up again is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity, and healing provokes attacks of opportunity, and if someone's spending his action healing he's just as out of the fight as someone who was left unconscious, and also next to a mad orc with a falchion who's regretting not slicing the person healing in two the round before and killing two birds with one sword.

[Basket Burner]

One of the very few instances in which Cleave is actually useful.

[RobbyPants]

Once someone drops unconscious it's fair to say they die next round if the enemy isn't killed

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, unless the guy hits exactly -9 HP. Given a falchion crit (average of 18 damage from a MM orc), it will kill pretty much any wizard, almost every rogue, and put all the d8 HD and higher well into the negatives.

Still, other than ending up right at -9 HP, I don't see where you're getting this from.

Once they are down they are prone and have an effective Dex of 0. Hit on a 2, doing at least 9 damage is no problem. The alternative is they just get healed and get up again. Especially if there are multiple enemies around, and even level 1s fight these guys in pairs at least.

Why exactly is the orc focusing on the one unconscious PCs and not the three live ones that can kill it?

Maybe if these were MM2 Abyssal Maulers or something (or whatever monster it is that deals 2d8 for free to a creature it drops).

One of the very few instances in which Cleave is actually useful.

MM orcs don't have cleave.

[Rejakor]

I love how the same people who decry in-combat healing as a 'waste of an action' at the same time advocate that all monsters everywhere decapitate fallen foes (despite not even knowing if they are alive) while ignoring the enemies who are stabbing them in the face.

And then they go BUT THE ORC KNOWS THE PC COULD GET HEALERED AND GET UP SO IT DID THE TACTICALLY APPROPRIATE THING.

'tactically appropriate thing' is used more often as a 'hurr I am so good at dnd look at me kill all my players' dm power trip excuse than as an actual attempt to portray the psychology of an opponent.  Which makes me sad.

[AyeGill]

The orc isn't focusing on the dropped PC. It's letting him lie there. IF, however, he should be brought back to consciousness and stand up, it gets an attack of opportunity on him, which at the very least immediately drops him, and almost certainly kills him.

[veekie]

Which means generally, nobody would be doing that. So he'd be on the floor until the end of the combat, when someone can be spared to fix him. Not quite equivalent to dead.

[linklord231]

The orc isn't focusing on the dropped PC. It's letting him lie there. IF, however, he should be brought back to consciousness and stand up, it gets an attack of opportunity on him, which at the very least immediately drops him, and almost certainly kills him.

Reminds me of the Whirlwind Attack+Great Cleave+Bag of Rats trick.  The orc drops a guy, then stands next to him.  The cleric uses his turn every round to heal the guy, who spends HIS action every turn standing up.  Every time he tries to stand up, the orc AoO's him (dropping him again) and Great Cleaves to a different party member.  Of course, this depends on the cleric spending his action healing the guy every turn, which seems unlikely.  Then again, when I play clerics I get bitched at for "letting a party member die" even if it's perfectly rational to just let him lay there until the end of combat and heal/rez him afterward, so maybe it's more likely than one would initially think.