How can a lazy DM challenge an optimized party?

[Basket Burner]

Why exactly is the orc focusing on the one unconscious PCs and not the three live ones that can kill it?

One makes sure he doesn't get up again, the others keep fighting. 1 Orc is too low for even level 1 parties.

MM orcs don't have cleave.

  Should I have used blue font? It was a joke post.

[veekie]

The orc isn't focusing on the dropped PC. It's letting him lie there. IF, however, he should be brought back to consciousness and stand up, it gets an attack of opportunity on him, which at the very least immediately drops him, and almost certainly kills him.

Reminds me of the Whirlwind Attack+Great Cleave+Bag of Rats trick.  The orc drops a guy, then stands next to him.  The cleric uses his turn every round to heal the guy, who spends HIS action every turn standing up.  Every time he tries to stand up, the orc AoO's him (dropping him again) and Great Cleaves to a different party member.  Of course, this depends on the cleric spending his action healing the guy every turn, which seems unlikely.  Then again, when I play clerics I get bitched at for "letting a party member die" even if it's perfectly rational to just let him lay there until the end of combat and heal/rez him afterward, so maybe it's more likely than one would initially think.

Actually the better idea. Why would he stand up anyway, hes better off prone and holding onto total defense.

[lans]

One makes sure he doesn't get up again, the others keep fighting. 1 Orc is too low for even level 1 parties.

If its two, then its better option would be to try to kill 2 pcs, one orc gets dropped by the remaining pc, then the remaining kills the last pc.

But it depends on the situation. If its a party of genocidal dwarves just outside their peaceful orc village its a different story.

[Basket Burner]

Prone and total defense cancel each other out... assuming the formerly unconscious person gets a turn and spends it doing essentially nothing. It does mean no AoO, but it doesn't stop them from being taken out next round.

Orcs fight from a position of numerical advantage. If it's 4v2 they don't have it, so they're going to try and get it. The PCs would do the same if they had any reason to believe their opponents had any form of healing ability. Most monsters don't, most humanoids - adventurer or not do.

[linklord231]

Actually the better idea. Why would he stand up anyway, hes better off prone and holding onto total defense.

Combat is very un-fun for dead PCs, and only slightly more fun for PCs who are prone and Total Defense-ing every round.  Personally I would rather be dead or unconscious than limited to lying on the ground going "please don't hurt me."  At least when I don't have the OPTION to take actions, I can go make a cup of tea or something.  My party members seem to disagree though.

[Mooncrow]

Well, if the orcs' purpose in life is just to make it as costly as possible for the PC's, then killing the downed player is the rational thing to do. 

If we presume the orcs actually want to win, wasting resources to neutralize a downed threat is incredibly stupid. 

So, are these orcs somewhat smart, or really stupid?

[veekie]

You do something actually, by remaining prone and on total defense, you either have an enemy trying to attack you(not necessarily effectively) and wasting his action, or he decides 1:1 lockdown with a prone guy isn't worth it and goes elsewhere.

[Basket Burner]

Well, if the orcs' purpose in life is just to make it as costly as possible for the PC's, then killing the downed player is the rational thing to do. 

If we presume the orcs actually want to win, wasting resources to neutralize a downed threat is incredibly stupid. 

So, are these orcs somewhat smart, or really stupid?

Int 8 is that awkward point where if you correctly assume that making sure they stay down is smart they know it and if you incorrectly assume they should play whack a mole they still know it.

If you're prone, conscious, and in total defense you're exactly as hard to hit as you were when... you got hit and knocked down and unconscious and tied up another party member reviving you just so you could do nothing.

[ImperatorK]

Combat is very un-fun for dead PCs, and only slightly more fun for PCs who are prone and Total Defense-ing every round.  Personally I would rather be dead or unconscious than limited to lying on the ground going "please don't hurt me."  At least when I don't have the OPTION to take actions, I can go make a cup of tea or something.  My party members seem to disagree though.

OTOH, one slightly un-fun encounter of lying prone is better than being dead and not playing for the rest of the session, unless you're high enough level that you can reliably Ressurect PCs.

[RobbyPants]

Why exactly is the orc focusing on the one unconscious PCs and not the three live ones that can kill it?

One makes sure he doesn't get up again, the others keep fighting. 1 Orc is too low for even level 1 parties.

Wait.

So, the orc spends his standard action killing an already downed foe rather than dealing with actual threats? The only way that guy is getting up again is if one of the other threats blows his standard action to do something about it. After a typical falchion crit, a 16 Con fighter is going to be at -5 HP. If the cleric's initiative falls in the right order that he can cast CLW, he can get the fighter to 0 HP (disabled) on average. If he takes any longer, even a CLW spell will still leave the fighter in the negatives.

Almost all of the time, the best they're doing in combat is keeping the guy from bleeding out. He's still KOed for the entire fight. This whole orc-murders-the-PCs-mid-fight thing doesn't even make sense.

MM orcs don't have cleave.

  Should I have used blue font? It was a joke post.

Sorry. With you advocating orc murder squads, I honestly couldn't tell.

[Basket Burner]

Wait.

So, the orc spends his standard action killing an already downed foe rather than dealing with actual threats? The only way that guy is getting up again is if one of the other threats blows his standard action to do something about it. After a typical falchion crit, a 16 Con fighter is going to be at -5 HP. If the cleric's initiative falls in the right order that he can cast CLW, he can get the fighter to 0 HP (disabled) on average. If he takes any longer, even a CLW spell will still leave the fighter in the negatives.

Hm, 18 Str, 16 Con + other stats... what PB is this again? I guess he can do it if he isn't a tripper. Not that a 1 HP differential matters much here. If there's only two the other kills him and then it's 3v2. 2 orcs is only a normal fight for 1st level characters - assume anything harder than normal or any higher level and there are more orcs. Sure higher level also means higher HP, but the orc group's damage and action economy advantages are both growing faster.

Almost all of the time, the best they're doing in combat is keeping the guy from bleeding out. He's still KOed for the entire fight. This whole orc-murders-the-PCs-mid-fight thing doesn't even make sense.

The more orcs there are the more sense it makes. A half dozen is a normal fight for a level 3 party.

Sorry. With you advocating orc murder squads, I honestly couldn't tell.

Enemies absolutely should be fighting for their lives, because they are. Cleave is still a bad feat though as something only useful in a handful of niche situations but that costs something all the time is not worth it. Text doesn't convey tone but I figured people would catch that.

[RobbyPants]

Hm, 18 Str, 16 Con + other stats... what PB is this again? I guess he can do it if he isn't a tripper. Not that a 1 HP differential matters much here. If there's only two the other kills him and then it's 3v2. 2 orcs is only a normal fight for 1st level characters - assume anything harder than normal or any higher level and there are more orcs. Sure higher level also means higher HP, but the orc group's damage and action economy advantages are both growing faster.

I figured 16 Con was a good baseline for a 1st level fighter assuming about a 32 PB (that's what seems to be most common here). Still, if he has a 14, then he's at - 6 HP, and if he has an 18 (very unlikely), then he has -4 HP. So, under the "very unlikely" category, an average CLW would raise him to 1 HP after an average crit. As for higher level PCs and more orcs, sure, but that's not what I was talking about.

[Mooncrow]

Enemies absolutely should be fighting for their lives, because they are. Cleave is still a bad feat though as something only useful in a handful of niche situations but that costs something all the time is not worth it. Text doesn't convey tone but I figured people would catch that.

And when enemies are actually fighting for their lives, they act assuming that they're going to win, and work towards efficiency with that in mind.  Healing is bad in D&D, and orcs fight enough to know that.  It's not like they don't have healers, or fight against other enemies that do. 

[Rejakor]

These orcs are looking suspiciously like Bad-DM brand suicide orcs.  'no guys, he killed John's character cause he knew that you could heal him after the fight it's totally in-character'.

Speaking from a psychological perspective, it takes an absolute BUTTLOAD of motivation for someone to throw away their best chance at living.  So why is this orc wasting it's action shanking a downed foe while angry PCs are stabbing it multiple times in the brain?  If it's dying (0) and knows it's going to be killed, it might shank a dying PC just out of malice.  If all the 'action' is heaps far away, it might take the time to outright kill a fallen foe.

Anything else and you're going into 'hur the orc knows it's going to die so it kill the PC so the PC doesn't get healed after it's dead'.  Which is just.. absolutely silly.  Humans don't do that, ergo, orcs don't do that.  And if you have campaign-specific fatalistic angry orcs that do that, well, that's great, i'm happy for you, but that's not the general rule.  Which is what we are talking about here. 

[linklord231]

I love how we moved from discussing ways for a lazy DM to challenge a party to whether or not an orc would "realistically" finish off an unconscious PC.   
To the topic at hand:  I personally believe that most monsters of at least animal intelligence would change their attention off of a disabled character.  Creatures of Int -- may or may not, depending.  A giant spider, for example, probably would have self-preservation instincts that kick in and prevent it from devouring a fresh kill while there are still threats nearby.  A golem probably doesn't.  Just my perspective.

To the original topic:  While the ideas about changing Feats around and using special abilities tactically/intelligently sound great, they don't really fit the spirit of the whole "lazy DM" thing.  I figure a truly "lazy" DM probably wouldn't have the foresight to READ a monster's feats, let alone CHANGE them to his advantage.  It's not hard, but it's more work than they would otherwise have to do.  The idea of simply doubling the number of monsters I think works better, simply because the DM has to do exactly no more work than he was already doing.

[X-Codes]

A giant spider, for example, probably would have self-preservation instincts that kick in and prevent it from devouring a fresh kill while there are still threats nearby.  A golem probably doesn't.  Just my perspective.

Don't forget that aside from special, mindless undead monsters, it's unlikely that creatures of Int -- can even tell the difference between unconscious enemies and dead ones, and they absolutely don't have the logical reasoning capability to double-tap.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way... trippers don't need Int.  If they have it, great.  If they don't, they take 2 levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian and get the needed feat.  On a 32 point buy, 16/13/17/8/10/8 is absolutely viable for a typical beatstick tripper, especially if they grab something like the Feral or Mineral Warrior templates.

[Basket Burner]

I figured 16 Con was a good baseline for a 1st level fighter assuming about a 32 PB (that's what seems to be most common here). Still, if he has a 14, then he's at - 6 HP, and if he has an 18 (very unlikely), then he has -4 HP. So, under the "very unlikely" category, an average CLW would raise him to 1 HP after an average crit. As for higher level PCs and more orcs, sure, but that's not what I was talking about.

32 PB is standard. But 14 Con + the standard Str is 22, so enough left for Wisdom, and tripping and so forth. 16 Con + the standard Str is 26... you're not going to be able to do much except for stand and swing or perhaps move and swing.

Higher level (as in 3+) is the only thing interesting about orc comparisons as sure, people die in one or two hits but it's level 1. You might as well go complain about VoltTurn in OU.

[Rejakor]

Read what other people write.  It's not fucking hard, monkeys can do it.

He edited this an hour before you responded to the thread.

EDIT: Oh, and by the way... trippers don't need Int.  If they have it, great.  If they don't, they take 2 levels of Wolf Totem Barbarian and get the needed feat.  On a 32 point buy, 16/13/17/8/10/8 is absolutely viable for a typical beatstick tripper, especially if they grab something like the Feral or Mineral Warrior templates.

Please stop defending your failure to do basic math with faulty logic.

It compounds the stupidity that you're arguing that fighters should have only str/con in the other thread.

16 Con is far more important to any fighter-type that isn't planning on casting spells than high wisdom or int.  There are lots of ways to get improved trip that don't need 13 int.

17 str and 16 con is incredibly standard for fighter types who are going to wear plate and there is absolutely nothing unusual about it.  Leaves enough for dex 12 and int 10, which is all you really need with their lobotomized class skill list.

[Drammor]

..."nuke" the crap out of enemies from nearly 1000 feet in the air, and Teleport away if they close the distance somehow. True Seeing won't even help, because the range on that is only 120 feet. ...

Where are you getting 1,000 feet? Dance of Ruin is limited to 100 feet, isn't it?

[veekie]

Keep it civil people, argue the point, not the person