How can a lazy DM challenge an optimized party?

[X-Codes]

Who said anything about Dance of Ruin?  Telekinesis makes Dance of Ruin look like Dance of the Sugar Plum Faeries.

[lans]

32 PB is standard. But 14 Con + the standard Str is 22, so enough left for Wisdom, and tripping and so forth. 16 Con + the standard Str is 26... you're not going to be able to do much except for stand and swing or perhaps move and swing..

Your assuming that part of the strength or con isn't coming from a stat boost. Waterborn orc with stats of 16/14/16/8/14/8 will have a final build of 20/14/18/6/12/6. Add dragonborn and artic to taste

[ariasderros]

Who said anything about Dance of Ruin?  Telekinesis makes Dance of Ruin look like Dance of the Sugar Plum Faeries.

TK damage, from a MotUH I built for a powerful campaign.

(click to show/hide)

The Shrinking Lead Mountain
Full size weight   1,536,000
Shrunk weight   375
Dice / damage   30,720-d6
Cost / Weight (lead)   2cp / lb
Cost of Lead Mountain   30,720 gp
Scroll of Shrink Item   375 gp
Cost of Permanence   8,050 gp
Total Price   38,770 gp
Average Damage =   107,520

15 Darts of Sizing, thrown for damage
11 sized to C++ for 6d6 each (32lb each)
4 sized to G for 2d6 each (4lb each)
74d6 at 368lb, Avg damage = 259

[Unbeliever]

Sorta off-topic: 

Who said anything about Dance of Ruin?  Telekinesis makes Dance of Ruin look like Dance of the Sugar Plum Faeries.

I think TK requires considerable preparation, that is not laziness, to use.  And, for an encounter, Dance of Ruin is awesome conceptually.  It was used against us in one encounter and worked great as we frantically tried to stop it from completing.  That worked, if memory serves, b/c we were of sufficiently low level and didn't have the right abilities so that 20d6 damage was pretty scary, and we were also protecting a village of people, the majority of which would have been totally killed by a successful DoR. 

If I were to tweak Vrocks, especially for more high level encounters, I'd probably jack up DoR in a serious way b/c I like how it shapes encounters.

[X-Codes]

TK requires you to stock your Vrocks with large Greatswords or something like that.  It's not *that* hard.

[veekie]

Or you could just TK grab party members, not as flashy as the damage potential but you can really mess things up like that.

[phaedrusxy]

Or you could just TK grab party members, not as flashy as the damage potential but you can really mess things up like that.

Or throw rocks, etc. It doesn't require much in the way of preparation, unless you're wanting to really optimize the damage, which isn't necessary. We're making a challenge here, not going for a TPK.

[Basket Burner]

..."nuke" the crap out of enemies from nearly 1000 feet in the air, and Teleport away if they close the distance somehow. True Seeing won't even help, because the range on that is only 120 feet. ...

Where are you getting 1,000 feet? Dance of Ruin is limited to 100 feet, isn't it?

He's talking about using TK.

32 PB is standard. But 14 Con + the standard Str is 22, so enough left for Wisdom, and tripping and so forth. 16 Con + the standard Str is 26... you're not going to be able to do much except for stand and swing or perhaps move and swing..

Your assuming that part of the strength or con isn't coming from a stat boost. Waterborn orc with stats of 16/14/16/8/14/8 will have a final build of 20/14/18/6/12/6. Add dragonborn and artic to taste

I'm describing the stats before stat boosts, as it's a given you should get those. 18 Str is standard, and when you run 16 you get things like Dungeoncrasher that can't Dungeoncrash.

Sorta off-topic: 

Who said anything about Dance of Ruin?  Telekinesis makes Dance of Ruin look like Dance of the Sugar Plum Faeries.

I think TK requires considerable preparation, that is not laziness, to use.  And, for an encounter, Dance of Ruin is awesome conceptually.  It was used against us in one encounter and worked great as we frantically tried to stop it from completing.  That worked, if memory serves, b/c we were of sufficiently low level and didn't have the right abilities so that 20d6 damage was pretty scary, and we were also protecting a village of people, the majority of which would have been totally killed by a successful DoR. 

If I were to tweak Vrocks, especially for more high level encounters, I'd probably jack up DoR in a serious way b/c I like how it shapes encounters.

Because they couldn't run 100 feet away in three rounds? What, were they like "Ooh, look at the pretty bird demons singing about slaughtering us all!"

Even if you completely ignore that 3 level 9 things only doing 20d6 over 3 rounds might as well be 0 damage... This village is clearly too dumb to live.

[lans]

I'm describing the stats before stat boosts, as it's a given you should get those. 18 Str is standard, and when you run 16 you get things like Dungeoncrasher that can't Dungeoncrash.

I think an orc can afford the 16, if it can't his con is still a 16 due to the racial boost.

[Basket Burner]

I'm describing the stats before stat boosts, as it's a given you should get those. 18 Str is standard, and when you run 16 you get things like Dungeoncrasher that can't Dungeoncrash.

I think an orc can afford the 16, if it can't his con is still a 16 due to the racial boost.

Orcs have +4 racial to Str. So do Goliaths. We've seen what even the anti elitists think of characters that are weak by virtue of low stats.

Therefore, even the anti elitists concede 18 or bust.

And that in turn means 6 points for stats other than Str/Con = can't do anything but straight melee.

[Unbeliever]

Or you could just TK grab party members, not as flashy as the damage potential but you can really mess things up like that.

Or throw rocks, etc. It doesn't require much in the way of preparation, unless you're wanting to really optimize the damage, which isn't necessary. We're making a challenge here, not going for a TPK.

Throwing rocks isn't all that impressive damage-wise, I think.  Unless you've got boulders handy or something.  I think the weight limitation of TK turns it into 15d6, but you have to roll to hit with all of them, etc.  I guess it's not bad, but it's not clearly outclassing DoR. 

And, yeah, I would qualify stocking Vrocks, who typically seem to run around naked, with Bags of Holding filled with Greatswords (ideally big ones ...) as a fair amount of preparation or system mastery.  As in, it's (a) pretty CO to recognize that use of TK -- and yes, I know it's old hat to us, but this is a charopp forum -- and (b) indicates a fair amount of prep on the Vrock's part.  That's all I was saying. 

[Unbeliever]

Sorta off-topic: 

Who said anything about Dance of Ruin?  Telekinesis makes Dance of Ruin look like Dance of the Sugar Plum Faeries.

I think TK requires considerable preparation, that is not laziness, to use.  And, for an encounter, Dance of Ruin is awesome conceptually.  It was used against us in one encounter and worked great as we frantically tried to stop it from completing.  That worked, if memory serves, b/c we were of sufficiently low level and didn't have the right abilities so that 20d6 damage was pretty scary, and we were also protecting a village of people, the majority of which would have been totally killed by a successful DoR. 

If I were to tweak Vrocks, especially for more high level encounters, I'd probably jack up DoR in a serious way b/c I like how it shapes encounters.

Because they couldn't run 100 feet away in three rounds? What, were they like "Ooh, look at the pretty bird demons singing about slaughtering us all!"

Even if you completely ignore that 3 level 9 things only doing 20d6 over 3 rounds might as well be 0 damage... This village is clearly too dumb to live.

BB, do you even play D&D?  Like, seriously, is there some RPG that you actually play?  Or, do you just like to snipe about it on the internet?  B/c I can't imagine a table being able to tolerate this kind of attitude or approach for more than a session or 2. 

For some reason, I didn't feel it necessary to type out the entire battlemap for the encounter, detail all the other enemies involved, the terrain, the plot points, the PCs, and so on in what was an off-handed comment that was off-topic in the thread.  Things like how the Vrocks couldn't hit our ACs, but we didn't have many hit points, and so on.  Especially since I was just remarking on a positive experience that could be used as a springboard to further encounter design.

I try not to rise to this kind of baiting, but I wanted to post to point out that this kind of attitude is the sort of thing that will kill off any game that someone is involved in. 

[Basket Burner]

Or you could just TK grab party members, not as flashy as the damage potential but you can really mess things up like that.

Or throw rocks, etc. It doesn't require much in the way of preparation, unless you're wanting to really optimize the damage, which isn't necessary. We're making a challenge here, not going for a TPK.

Throwing rocks isn't all that impressive damage-wise, I think.  Unless you've got boulders handy or something.  I think the weight limitation of TK turns it into 15d6, but you have to roll to hit with all of them, etc.  I guess it's not bad, but it's not clearly outclassing DoR. 

And, yeah, I would qualify stocking Vrocks, who typically seem to run around naked, with Bags of Holding filled with Greatswords (ideally big ones ...) as a fair amount of preparation or system mastery.  As in, it's (a) pretty CO to recognize that use of TK -- and yes, I know it's old hat to us, but this is a charopp forum -- and (b) indicates a fair amount of prep on the Vrock's part.  That's all I was saying.

Even if each boulder is only 1d6 damage 15d6 per Vrock per round vs 20d6 for all three Vrocks for three rounds. Last I checked 135 is a much higher number than 20. You'd do even better with actual weapons but even using whatever's available will still do far better.

[Basket Burner]

BB, do you even play D&D?  Like, seriously, is there some RPG that you actually play?  Or, do you just like to snipe about it on the internet?  B/c I can't imagine a table being able to tolerate this kind of attitude or approach for more than a session or 2. 

For some reason, I didn't feel it necessary to type out the entire battlemap for the encounter, detail all the other enemies involved, the terrain, the plot points, the PCs, and so on in what was an off-handed comment that was off-topic in the thread.  Things like how the Vrocks couldn't hit our ACs, but we didn't have many hit points, and so on.  Especially since I was just remarking on a positive experience that could be used as a springboard to further encounter design.

I try not to rise to this kind of baiting, but I wanted to post to point out that this kind of attitude is the sort of thing that will kill off any game that someone is involved in.

Normally when I see a useless post that serves no purpose except to throw random flames and insults I ignore both it and the poster and continue on from there.

However, since you have chosen to be a douchebag instead of acknowledging just how stupid this scenario is I will break it down nicely.

For the village to be a concern at all they'd have to be with 100 feet because that is the actual range of the ability. A village of normal people seeing a demon - much less three demons dancing and singing about murdering everyone around is going to run the fuck away. Therefore for their safety to be a concern at all they'd have to not run the fuck away from the big scary demons that are gleefully trying to kill them (in the most hilariously suboptimal way possible).

Any village that is so fucking stupid they will not run the fuck away from the big scary demons is too stupid to live and will probably get killed off by something else the moment the PCs leave even if you DO save them.

And that's ignoring the encounter itself. 3 Vrocks is a level 12 encounter, if there's more enemies it's even higher. That makes the PCs actually caring at all, on any level about 20d6 3 rounds from now (read: after all three are dead) even more laughable than it otherwise would be. Especially since you only have to kill ONE of them to stop it. So this party facing at least a level 12 encounter cannot kill a single level 9 enemy with all of them working together in three rounds?

At this point the problem isn't Dance of Tickling at all. The problem is that one of those Vrocks could say "Hey, let me handle this." And then that one Vrock sweeps your whole fucking team while the other two and all these other unknown enemies just watch and laugh, because if you fucked up that badly in every aspect of D&D you have worse problems than taking 20d6 damage 3 rounds from now.

Yes, I do actually play D&D and if you can't imagine a table that could tolerate the attitude of expecting random nobodies to actually think enough to run from the scary things that only makes you look even more stupid than you are already making yourself look. Likewise if you can't imagine a table in which demons that are literal incarnations of the sin Wrath to go around brutally slaughtering people.

[Tiltowait]

...Wow. I agree the civilians should be running away and the party should have no trouble winning here but is all that vitriol really necessary?

I really don't think this is a game for lazy DMs. Even if you don't spend much time on combat encounters or combat itself you still have to manage all manner of plot and world aspects of your campaign. These things take time and effort. A lazy DM is not going to want to invest that, so even if they can handle fights fine they should focus on a less time intensive game.

[Unbeliever]

...Wow. I agree the civilians should be running away and the party should have no trouble winning here but is all that vitriol really necessary?

As was suggested earlier in this thread the encounters are of significantly higher CR than usual.  As was also suggested in this thread, the monsters tend to have much higher than normal hit points.  I wasn't GMing, so I don't know the number.  I usually just double them. 

I believe we were 8th level during the encounter.  It was part of a fairly elaborate siege adventure, used with Heroes of Battle's flowchart rules.  The enemies came in waves, the Vrocks being part of a floating skirmisher corps, supporting ground troops.  The "back" of the village -- i.e., the place where the villagers could run to without running into the milling horde of zombies, et al. that were the background to the siege -- was a ravine.  They could have scaled it, I believe, but would have been subjected to dakaelfin (it was a Norse game, say evil fae) archers. 

The party also had a lot of gish-like qualities (I myself was playing an archivist gish type) -- so while our ACs were high enough that the Vrocks would have a very hard time hitting us, even with TK, and also had to contend with some DR which nerfed their multiple attacks and would also nerf a cloud of boulders they threw at us.  In addition, the party lacked a lot of ranged punch in this particular encounter:  we relied a lot of dragonfire inspiration, but it was lightning based and vrocks are immune to it.  So, yes, if memory serves (this is from 8 months ago), killing Vrocks with 2-3 times their normal hit points in that particular scenario while still stopping their allies from tearing open the awesome fortifications offered by earthen huts and murdering the civilians inside was, if memory serves, an interesting challenge. 

Some of this, I think, was done for convenience.  Our battlemaps are only so big, which favors some set of area attacks in the rare occasions they come up.  Some of it was clearly "the setup," and b/c we think the idea of defending a village from a siege both interesting and fit with our characters, we, the Players, were not too inclined to throw a wrench into it.  We may be doing it wrong (tm), but somehow I don't think so. 

Now, I suppressed all that information from my earlier posts b/c I didn't think it was important for a side post about how I liked how this one mechanic worked out in this one instance (Saga Edition has similar mechanics, too, it occurs to me now).  Apparently that was a mistake ...

[Agita]

Enough.

I've trashed the whole Roy train of discussion. This thread is not about who is who where else, or who has unreasoning hatred of who, or who has the biggest online dick. Chill the fuck out and talk like reasonable adults talking about their hobby, not like preschoolers screaming about who took whose cake. That goes for all of you.

[Endarire]

While we're at it, just adding foes (or giving them more HP, +1s, etc.) is a 'lazy' way to do it.

And please keep things on topic and civil!