On Half Dragons and Dragon Samurai

[Rags]

This post is kinda about 2 things. First, breath weapons. Second, buying off LA.

The Dragon Samurai (Miniatures Handbook) gains the ability Dragon Breath at first level. This can be used 1/day, but something is the second paragraph grabs my attention:

If a dragon samurai already has a breath weapon of the same type, the damage stacks... She still gets to use her breath weapon once per day.

Now lets say we are a Half Dragon Dragon Samurai 1. The 2 breath weapons stack together as in the example and we can use it 1/day like always. Can we select the feat Dragon Breath (RotD) do we get to use this stronger breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds?

I can't see why we wouldn't be able to, seeing as it is still the Half Dragons breath weapon. This could lead to something nice, what with meta-breath and all that jazz.

My second thought is about the Draconic Racial Class (RotD, p70).

If we start a character with the Draconic racial class we get a LA at level 2 and we can thereafter choose to advance this into Half Dragon when we please. After gaining our 3rd character level we buy off our 1 LA. When our experience dictates we take another LA, but then we also buy that off. Repeat for the last LA.

We can buy off the entire Half Dragon template at level 3, instead of level 18. Sure it will cost you a chunk of exp at the lower levels, but it'll save your ass at higher levels, if you want to be a half dragon. You would catch up in little time with the level gap.

I'm only raising awareness to this because I don't believe anyone else has, and it could be of some use. Are there any other templates broken down in this way?

So as you can imagine, I'm thinking of a character at level 15 who is an X 5/Dragon Samurai 10. 15 bab and a breath weapon of 16d8 damage every 1d4 rounds.

[Nunkuruji]

There's also the dragonborn breath weapon option

[Prime32]

There's also the dragonborn breath weapon option

Or, y'know, dragonfire adept.

[RedWarlock]

Generally a workable concept, but I think that is a bit too liberal of an interpretation of the interaction between racial classes and LA buy off. I wouldn't allow you to start buying off until you finished the racial class.

[Rags]

I think when the designers of the class say breath weapon of the same "type", they meant breath weapon of the same "damage die". Only a hunch I'm getting from the example they give. So I'd say it would stack on top on dragonborn, but not DFA.

But can we use the higher damage breath weapon stacking from dragon samurai at the same rate as a faster recharge breath weapon?

With taking the next 2 LA from the racial class, the notes only state that you cannot take another class level until you have taken the last LA. Who's stopping you from spending 2k exp?

I do agree it is somewhat liberal, instead you could take the next 2 LA at level 6, buy one off when you can, and buy the next off at level 9.

[SorO_Lost]

I think when the designers of the class say breath weapon of the same "type", they meant breath weapon of the same "damage die". Only a hunch I'm getting from the example they give. So I'd say it would stack on top on dragonborn, but not DFA.

A hunch from their example they give (two 1/days) could also suggest At-Will doesn't apply. So it your mix-matching there, why not choose the most favorable instead of drawing a line you've already passed?

Type seems to be a reference towards shape and element as it refers to the table that only notes such. Likewise I think your first post has a very reasonable interpretation. Dragon Samurai's Dragon Breath ability either gives you a breath weapon or improves your existing breath weapon. As it's own example calls out, it should have 1/day from Half-Dragon and 1/day from DS but instead it simply has an improved rate with a single breath. Simply put, Dragon Breath contains no text or hint that it alters the uses per day, only that additional damage stacks into your previously obtained breath if you have one.

[Rags]

You are right about type, I don't know what I was thinking when I put that point up. I'm starting to muddle myself up

Would this be valuable in any builds, or at least make the DS a PrC option?

Likewise I think your first post has a very reasonable interpretation.

Thanks

[X-Codes]

The sad thing about the Dragon Samurai is that the Dragon Shaman does it better.  Yeah, THAT Dragon Shaman.

For some reason, WotC had this weird idea that breath weapons were OP.  This was maintained even well into 3.5's lifetime.  The first class that doesn't follow this line of thought was the Dragon Shaman, even though the class needs more support to be useful, and the second was the Dragonfire Adept.  I think Races of the Dragon might have come before the Dragon Shaman, but I do not know for sure.

[SorO_Lost]

Would this be valuable in any builds, or at least make the DS a PrC option?

Not really.

You don't play a Dragon Shaman if you're focused on Breath Weapons, you play a Dragonfire Adapt. And that would look like...
DFA10/DS10 has 5d6+10d8, or 62.5 damage.
DFA15/DS5 has 7d6 & 5d8, DS only applies to one type of the five fold so 145, more than twice the amount and better invocations.
DFA15/Heir of Syberis 1 has a 7d6+2d6 for 157.5 with five fold, again even higher but it's four levels lower than the DS build.

The 3rd build looks like it could benefit from going into DS immediately right? +4d8 (18) damage, amazing! Except, DFA17 bumps the base damage for a net gain of +5d6 (17.5) and gives access to Dark Invocations...

So really DS isn't even useful until levels 19/20. It is a mere +9 damage per breath when you're already dealing 175+ per. So yeah, it's the icing letters on the three tier cake, but you after you read the message you won't notice it all that much while digging in.

[Rags]

The sad thing about the Dragon Samurai is that the Dragon Shaman does it better.  Yeah, THAT Dragon Shaman.

Sad and funny!

Would this be valuable in any builds, or at least make the DS a PrC option?

Not really.

You don't play a Dragon Shaman if you're focused on Breath Weapons, you play a Dragonfire Adapt. And that would look like...
DFA10/DS10 has 5d6+10d8, or 62.5 damage.
DFA15/DS5 has 7d6 & 5d8, DS only applies to one type of the five fold so 145, more than twice the amount and better invocations.
DFA15/Heir of Syberis 1 has a 7d6+2d6 for 157.5 with five fold, again even higher but it's four levels lower than the DS build.

The 3rd build looks like it could benefit from going into DS immediately right? +4d8 (18) damage, amazing! Except, DFA17 bumps the base damage for a net gain of +5d6 (17.5) and gives access to Dark Invocations...

So really DS isn't even useful until levels 19/20. It is a mere +9 damage per breath when you're already dealing 175+ per. So yeah, it's the icing letters on the three tier cake, but you after you read the message you won't notice it all that much while digging in.

I thought as much. As you said, the most it can be is a finisher for the DFA. When, or if, the DFA handbook is ported over I think it should hold a small sentience in the PrC section. Maybe a way for a DFA to gain a little martial experience.

No, stop Rags, leave it alone.

Sometimes its hard not to try to hold up hopes for all those underdog PrCs.

[SuperRimmies]

hmm, you could try being a half dragon dragonwrought kobold draconic sorcerer/1(cheese entry), dragonfire adept/1, dragon shaman/4, binder/1, dragon samurai/1 talon of tiamat/9, something else/3

thats 10 breath weapons and can convert spells into breath weapon via feat draconic breath

[Nunkuruji]

I'm not sure if BAB is right, unless I'm overlooking some errata on the D.Samurai.

In any case, given the template stats, I think your best bet is to fill your other class levels with Crusader or Warblade, and take a breath feat or two.

[Dwarfi]

hmm, you could try being a half dragon dragonwrought kobold draconic sorcerer/1(cheese entry), dragonfire adept/1, dragon shaman/4, binder/1, dragon samurai/1 talon of tiamat/9, something else/3

thats 10 breath weapons and can convert spells into breath weapon via feat draconic breath

and hope that your dm doesnt give multi class penalty ^^

Nice idea. I like theme based builds, you could take a bloodline from a dragon to make it perfect xd