Stealth tanking?

[Drammor]

Is it possible to be not only the Party's stealth man and also the Party's tank, but to do both jobs effectively? Furthermore, if it is possible to be both guys, is it possible to do both jobs simultaneously?

What I mean is along the lines of... can you go around the battlefield and tank from a position of stealth? Provide protection to your team without letting the enemy know that you're the one doing it or that you're even there?

And if this is possible, what's the best way to optimize it?

[dman11235]

If you didn't need to be stealthy and tank at the same time, then I'd say one of my Monks works well for that: high damage, high AC, massive trip ability (and possibly disarm).  Otherwise, you'll need a caster of some sort.  You take a -20 penalty on hide checks made after attacking.  That means that you'll be better off not making attacks yourself, use summonings or similar things.

[sirpercival]

Be a changeling dual-specialist.  You can use illusions to stay hidden, and use transmutations to buff the party.

[X-Codes]

Monk 2/Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 1/[Full BAB] 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 9

Pick up Elusive Target, and also look to stack up some DR x/--.  Doesn't have to be much, just about 10 or so.  At this point, your defenses are as such:

First, they have to hit your AC, which should be non-trivial.  Also, Wraithstrike is not particularly effective, because your Touch AC is non-trivial.

Next, they have to get past your 50% miss-chance'd concealment, which is not an Illusion, so most methods of countering it simply don't apply.  They could easily also have to get past your Greater Mirror Image spell, which is easier to circumvent but a much stronger rebuke against melee types.  This also prevents any kind of sneak attack from working.

If they actually hit you, then all benefits from Power Attack are null and void and their damage is further reduced by 10 or so.  As a result, you're probably taking less than 20 damage per hit.  Really big things might hit you for 30 damage.

If, at any point, they miss you, you probably get a free trip against them.

Also, you have a 50% miss chance against targeted effects, even if they're not attack rolls.

If, after all this, something really nasty actually manages to get to you, you've got Wings of Cover.

Also, Hide and Move Silently are class skills from early on and for most levels, nevermind the fact that you can just throw Invisibility down and possibly turn incorporeal.

You're also a caster with a solid caster level, so anything that doesn't have decent grapple mods can be tangled up with Evard's Black Tentacles if you please.

As such, you're big, nasty, invisible, practically unhittable, do fucktons of damage in reprisal, and even trip as a bonus.

[Rebel7284]

full BAB 1 could be a second level of sorcerer.

[phaedrusxy]

What exactly do you mean by "tanking"? If you mean taking a beating well, then of course no. If you mean controlling the battlefield physically via Thicket of Blades + Stand Still, or some other such combo, then sure. A "gish" with Persistent Greater Invisibility can fulfill that well enough in most scenarios.

[SorO_Lost]

Dread Commando was designed to be exactly what you want, and it's not a terrible PrC really. Full BAB, decent skill set, d8 for HD, +3d6 SS over five levels, up to +5 to the entire party's Initiative, and it's the only class I know that reduces movement penalties on stealth. Downside? Two feat investment and there is better Base Class dips to consider if you started out as a Rogue or something, like Factotum or Swordsage. So it's not a shiny gem either.

[dman11235]

ooh!  Phaedrus gave me an idea!  Do an Arcane Monk, using buffs to make you invisible and such (buffing party too), and focus on a trip/standstill BC method.  I'm thinking (or trying to) of a way to involve Crusader into the mix, so it can be a true tank.  I'm thinking Monk 2/Sorcerer (or other cha based caster) 2/Crusader 1/Eternal Blade 5/Enlightened Fist 10 or something?  Using Ascetic Mage of course, possibly Abjurant Champion, maybe War Weaver?  Hmm, Bard?  but you needGreater Invis.....

[brujon]

Dread Commando was designed to be exactly what you want, and it's not a terrible PrC really. Full BAB, decent skill set, d8 for HD, +3d6 SS over five levels, up to +5 to the entire party's Initiative, and it's the only class I know that reduces movement penalties on stealth. Downside? Two feat investment and there is better Base Class dips to consider if you started out as a Rogue or something, like Factotum or Swordsage. So it's not a shiny gem either.

Rokugan Ninja into Dread Commando is an awesome path. Since the AC bonus from ninja only drops if you use armor with movement penalty greater than 0, and dread commando reduces the penalty... You're effectively gaining a monk's AC bonus while being able to wear Mountain Armor, if you're so inclined... (Because it's so easy to reduce penalties with materials, and you're reducing it further by means of Dread Commando.). A level 5 drop from Rokugan Ninja is ideal so you get Int to Initiative. (Which also combo's rather nicely with Dread Commando's bonus to initiative). From there, you can dip swordsage for access to Shadow Hand stances, dip it again later for more high level stances (like the one that give's you concealment), and some of the Shadow Hand teleport maneuvers are good too. All the while you should be building up a lockdown build, so dip Barbarian, dip 2 levels of fighter for feats if you're feat starved, and whatever hits your fancy...

I'm sure someone here can give you a better guide to a good build!

[Maat Mons]

A wilderness feat rogue could replicate a fighter AoO tank build and also gain stealth skills and, eventually, camouflage and hide in plain sight in natural terrain. 

If you can gain camouflage, hide in plain sight, and the ability to move after each attack of opportunity, you can manage simultaneous stealth and tanking with just the hide skill.  Wolf pack tactics (Tome of Battle) lets you move 5 feet after each successful melee attack. 

[JohnnyMayHymn]

Arcane Swordsage1(for the most skills evah!) Savage Ghost2 or 4, Arcane SwordsageX

Now you have infinite polymorph line among other things...

[linklord231]

Ruby Knight Vindicator gets Hide in heavy armor and access to the Shadow Hand school. 

Oh RKV, is there anything you can't do?

[X-Codes]

full BAB 1 could be a second level of sorcerer.

No, it can't.  It has exactly +4 BAB at level 5 using fractional BAB, and it needs to get another +1 to qualify for Abjurant Champion, which must be entered into to get the caster levels necessary for Swiftblade.

ooh!  Phaedrus gave me an idea!  Do an Arcane Monk, using buffs to make you invisible and such (buffing party too), and focus on a trip/standstill BC method.  I'm thinking (or trying to) of a way to involve Crusader into the mix, so it can be a true tank.  I'm thinking Monk 2/Sorcerer (or other cha based caster) 2/Crusader 1/Eternal Blade 5/Enlightened Fist 10 or something?  Using Ascetic Mage of course, possibly Abjurant Champion, maybe War Weaver?  Hmm, Bard?  but you needGreater Invis.....

Monk 2/Barbarian 2/Sorcerer 1/Crusader 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 9.  Not ideal, but it works.

[Drammor]

What exactly do you mean by "tanking"?

The Tank should be able to divert attention and damage away from other party members and to their self or their ability to provide protection for others. They should also be able to inflict and withstand significant damage to and from enemies
for the duration of at least one encounter.

If the Tank is doing its job, then the Party's opposition should have no less than a difficult time dragging their attention away from them and toward the Caster and the other members of the Party.

Granted, the first point seems to be in direct opposition to notion of going unnoticed in an encounter. However, if the rules allow it, then whether it is counter-intuitive or not doesn't matter.


I'm, uh... still familiarizing myself with the builds presented. Thanks for those.

[phaedrusxy]

divert attention and damage away from other party members and to their self

without letting the enemy know that you're the one doing it or that you're even there?

How the heck does that work? If they don't even know you're there, how are you going to be diverting their attention to you?

I think what you want is an Illusionist. You divert their attention to a projection of you (Silent Image, the actual Projection spell, a summoned monster from an invisible summoner, etc), when in reality they don't know where you are at.

[X-Codes]

I should note... variants used include Cobra Strike Monk (for Dodge/Mobility), Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian (for Pounce), Wolf Totem Barbarian (Improved Trip at Barb 2), and Hunter Barbarian (trades Rage for FE and Combat Style of Ranger, basically looking for more attacks, with the handy bonus of making Ex-Barbarian status totally meaningless).  Also, upon further consideration I think the optimal [Full BAB] 1 in the build would, in fact, be Crusader 1.  If ToB is out, then the next obvious pick is Hit-and-Run Fighter 1.

There is also some optional Dragon material involved.  One of the martial arts styles from... 303?  It requires Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack and IUS and gives you an extra +1 from your Dodge feat, applied against either the same target or two different targets (which gives you two different targets against which you're immune to Power Attack).

[Surreal]

While not the most optimal prestige class, the Shadowband Stalker has that stealthy tank feel. I think it has 8/10 caster progression at least.

[muktidata]

You're describing a Lock-Down Crusader with Improved Invisibility; nothing like a huge tripper with a reach weapon who's.... Invisible. Goad + Abrupt Jaunt with a healthy dose of Illusions so your opponents are always confused might be kind of what you're describing.

Edit:

I just checked Rokugan Ninja. Where does it get an AC bonus from? I see only a free Dodge feat.

[Jackinthegreen]

You're describing a Lock-Down Crusader with Improved Invisibility; nothing like a huge tripper with a reach weapon who's.... Invisible. Goad + Abrupt Jaunt with a healthy dose of Illusions so your opponents are always confused might be kind of what you're describing.

Edit:

I just checked Rokugan Ninja. Where does it get an AC bonus from? I see only a free Dodge feat.

The dodge bonus increases as it levels up and later on can use it against more than one target.

Also of note is the Rokugan Ninja is proficient with a kusari-gama.

[Torvon]

Sickest and most powerful stealth tank build:

Cleric1 / Crusader 4 / Ruby Knight Vindicator X

Sweet spellcasting, insane battlefield control with thicket of blades stances at level 6 (earlier than you get it with full crusader), unkillable due to crusader maneuvers and cleric healing.
RKV progresses spellcasting and crusader maneuvers, gives your armored stealth (no armor check penalty in full plate).

Oh boy.

EDIT:
or go Paladin4/Crusader1/RKV.
or go Cleric4/Cru1/RKV
or Cleric1/Cru4/PrestigePally1/RKV if you want Rhino's Charge for free, alternatively just get the Wrath domain with your cleric, it's the level 1 domain spell.