Impact of tier 1-2 classes on lower tier class competence

[ImperatorK]

Classes are in their respective tiers based on their own abilities and potential. That much should be clear to anyone.
Lower tiers, 4 and below, have to specialize to stay relevant in power and are subpar outside their specialization. They also lack many abilities that at higher levels are basically essential to be useful or even survive. Things like flying, hitting incorporeal/invisible enemies, etc.
Tier system warns that having both tier 1 and tier 5 classes in one group can create problems. And it's true, if the players are the competitive type, because the tier 1 player will do his thing and the tier 5 player will do his thing, and the tier 1s thing will always be much better.
But when your group consists of cooperative players the problem doesn't matter, because whatever the lower tiers lack, the higher tiers can provide, and they're tier 1-2, so they can spare some of their might . So it evens out.
And I kinda think that the classes (at least the core ones) were design exactly with that in mind. The Fighter can't do anything outside of combat, because his role is to fight and there are other teammates that can handle out-of-combat situations. Likewise, he doesn't have a built-in ability to fly (well, maybe outside of an optimized Jump ), because the Wizard or Cleric can provide that.

TL;DR: Tiers are less relevant (although still useful) when the PC group is a TEAM, but they're especially true (and very useful) if the PC group is a BAND OF INDIVIDUALS.

Discuss.

[Mooncrow]

I think there are a couple interesting things to look at here:

1. Which low tier classes have specializations that are still useful to a high tier group, and are good enough at them to match or even beat a tier 1 in that specialization, and

2. Which classes have weaknesses that can be compensated for, and which have ones that can't be fixed.

It's only when both factors are true that I think it really makes a difference.  Which may, admittedly, limit it to a very few cases.  (I admit right now, my only concrete example is a charger barbarian)

It's especially interesting to look at, I think, since most parties, including ones made up completely of tier 1's, tend to specialize to certain extent; someone is going to be the main buff-bot, another the BFC, yet another (probably multiple) the damage dealer, etc.  So, for example, you might have a druid that specializes in melee and rarely casts anything but his own buffs.  No on is going to call that weak, after all, a druid can shred some face.  Now, replace that druid with the charger - is there any functional difference in the party during combat?  I don't really think there is, and at almost every level of the game, someone has to get out there and deal the damage. 

Now, on the other hand, you have classes like the warmage - that's not really fixable; they will always be a lesser version of something actually good.  They can't do nearly as much damage as a build like a charger, and they don't have tools of the wizard to improve it in other ways (no celerity/timestop, etc).

[RobbyPants]

TL;DR: Tiers are less relevant (although still useful) when the PC group is a TEAM, but they're especially true (and very useful) if the PC group is a BAND OF INDIVIDUALS.

If the DM builds encounters around PC capability, then I agree. If he runs modules right out of the book (or picks monsters of appropriate CR at random), then it matters based on what the module author expects.

[Kajhera]

I have no idea where an incarnum-focused horse prestige paladin companion fits into the tier system, but it's an example of how party members can cover each other's backs - I can cast Spiritual Chariot and provide flight for whoever else in the party when necessary (albeit at the cost of clustering together).

Then I can drop the troll-blooded tier 3/4 on top of anything.  Works often enough! (He's immune to fatigue, just incidentally.)

But yeah... characters tend to perform better when paired with characters that can enhance their performance. (Sounds like a truism when I put it that way but.) Higher tiers, like clerics and wizards cover certain basic capabilities that can help lower tiers not run around like chickens with their heads cut off as soon as you hit level 3.

Not to mention you have to go to them to fix most otherwise permanent problems, from blindness to death to soul destruction, short of a healer...

[TuggyNE]

But when your group consists of cooperative players the problem doesn't matter, because whatever the lower tiers lack, the higher tiers can provide, and they're tier 1-2, so they can spare some of their might . So it evens out.

This is a bit of a fallacy, in that it assumes that a party necessarily consists of both higher and lower tiers, which is really saying "sure there's a problem with the system but our group can fix it". Obviously that may in fact be the case, but it really remains a problem with the system all the same. After all, other than the metagame idea of variety, what is inherently so implausible about a group of former soldiers (using the Fighter class) all becoming adventurers together? Yet this arrangement is likely to work very poorly in many actual games.

Essentially, though, you do have a point in that the tier system is aimed primarily at generalities, and is most applicable to system design/balance discussions. It's still useful for party and character building, but it's inherently rather probabilistic, and there are lots of exceptions.

[ImperatorK]

This is a bit of a fallacy, in that it assumes that a party necessarily consists of both higher and lower tiers, which is really saying "sure there's a problem with the system but our group can fix it". Obviously that may in fact be the case, but it really remains a problem with the system all the same.

I said "the problem doesn't matter", not that it got fixed. I know the problem is still there. I was careful with my wording.

After all, other than the metagame idea of variety, what is inherently so implausible about a group of former soldiers (using the Fighter class) all becoming adventurers together? Yet this arrangement is likely to work very poorly in many actual games.

And why is that? Such a group of Fighters would have to have different types of adventures, but it doesn't mean they can't be fun.

[CaptRory]

It's the job of the Game Master to make sure everyone has a good time. Which means he'd have to adjust the normal balance of things to accomodate a group of nothing but fighters to make sure they had fun. Along the lines of, "Well there isn't going to be a real healer so I'll make sure that more potions drop and that there are more opportunities to heal." Or just things that play up what they do do well.


I have to agree with the original poster. If the team is made up of team players then everyone can have a job to do and the disparity between power levels of the different classes is less of a problem.

Think of any kind of tight knit combat unit, like a Roman Legion, or a Phalanx. Not every fighter can be the strongest, or the best swordsman, or the smartest, or fastest, but because they're working so closely together you build a whole that is much more than a sum of its parts.

The same goes for a standard adventuring party.

[ImperatorK]

"A chain is as strong as its weakest link." This saying might be true, but in D&D a team member would have to be seriously underpowered to actually drag his party down. For example a Fighter with Str 8, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14 and Cha 18, without armor, going TWF with greatswords. Even the best spells would not help such a character. The rest of the team would really be better of without him.

[CaptRory]

"A chain is as strong as its weakest link." This saying might be true, but in D&D a team member would have to be seriously underpowered to actually drag his party down. For example a Fighter with Str 8, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14 and Cha 18, without armor, going TWF with greatswords. Even the best spells would not help such a character. The rest of the team would really be better of without him.

I think a better saying for such a fighter is "You can't fix stupid."

[Keldar]

I agree with your position for the most part ImperatorK.  I think the bar for being a load rather than a teammate is higher than you set it though.  Its about fun, a DM can only adjust things so much before the power difference breaks the game.  Soon as someone realizes the only advantages they bring are actions and hit points, a lot of the fun gets sucked out.  For the most part, teamwork does make Tier differences vastly less important.

Partial tangent:

(click to show/hide)

The real problem in 3E is that it was designed with this philosophy in mind, yet the rules actively discourage it rather than encouraging it.  The best buffs at each spell level, often by a large margin, are all personal.  There are no buffs that are better to cast on another than on yourself.  This encourages self buffing over teammate buffing.  Worse, the low tier classes have no advantages to make them better targets for buffs over high tiers.  The only reason to buff low tier characters is to take more advantage of their actions.  A benefit better served by replacing them with a more effective character.  In 2E at least warriors had more attacks per round than anyone, making them a good vehicle for buffs, that was done away with in the 3E PHB.  Anyone can max out their number of attacks, and spellcasters spend less potential to do so.  (To add insult to injury, in a party with a druid an Animal Cohort is a better target for buffs than a Fighter that took the Feat.) 

3E really needed a spell range that was the inverse of Personal.  Something that could only be cast on another.  (Call it Boon, or Blessing or something.)  Give CoDzilla a reason to help a Fighter out, rather than trusting everyone will get teamwork is a smart idea.  I've know people that have been gaming for decades that still have trouble with that.

If there was any mechanics in place to encourage Team building rather than just being a random grouping of individuals, tiers wouldn't matter so much.  Presuming you had someone around that doesn't suck.   

[Unbeliever]

^ better combat feats might be a good way to look at it.  The Fighter (or putative buffing target) is devoting his feats, class features, gear, and other character resources to being better at the fighting stuff.  The buffer is devoting his resources to being better at casting, etc., or splitting the resources in the case of some casters.  That would give you some incentive to buff the Fighter-type -- he's winning at the numbers game now and the skill game. 

I think that's generally doable in 3.5, though I think warrior-types are also generally viable, as well.  But, I've played self-buffers who were at least as tough as the buffed warriors, so I guess it swings either way.

[ImperatorK]

Fighty types just benefit more from combat buffs.

[Jackinthegreen]

Debuffs can be useful for fighter-types too.  If you've got a character with Stunning Fist and the caster just lowered the opponent's save against it, it's happy time!  Same goes for lowering AC, and in turn some martial characters can lower the opponents' SR or PR to help the caster.

[10d10]

Not only a TEAM PARTY is necessary, but a DM who knows what he's doing and is strong on his feet.

I was in a very long campaign (3.5) and everybody was happy. We had messed up characters (like an incompetent paladin) and over-minmaxed characters (like our cleric). But the group worked as one, we had an unofficial leader (the wizard/sorcerer aiming on being Archmage) and a second in command (me, warmage), so when everyone split up or started to get crazy in-game, we told them to calm the fuck down and focus, because, as much as our DM was great, he gave too much freedom and was easily convinced of things.

Then came the competitive guy, telling all those great things about Pathfinder and how it made everything better and more shiny. How it was more balanced and such... Our DM was intrigued, we switched systems, but the DM was very dependent on the new guy for rules and such. We were not expecting his druid to be the "Oh I'm so badass mysterious lone wolf, you're a good party? too bad, I'm kinda evil" who liked to kill random NPCs (when he thought the NPCs were "showing off") and liked to show everyone how he and his tiger were so much better. 

This imploded our group and showed how much the tier-4 characters could be obsolete while he, the only tier-1 (since the cleric died somewhere) did everything. And if he lacked melee skills, his tiger fill the gap with 5 attacks per turn, making any fighter such a sissy stupid option.

So, yeah, acting as a team, maturity on the part of the players AND a DM who's firm. That's a nice balance for the tier mixing up thing.

[Snowbluff]

Sigh. If I knew how, I'd sage this and the other "tiers suck thread".

I'll contribute to this convo, though. Hopefully my insight will help this out.

Okay. So I am in hell, in a "Dante's Inferno" campaign. I have to save the Pope's soul from Lucifer. Along the way we meet a bunch of wacky characters, like King Midas and Cleopatra.

So the Cleric had to leave, so I scrapped my Wildshape Ranger/Revenant Blade (He was 4 corruption points from giving into his Deadly Sin, Wrath, and slaughtering the party, anyway).

I built a Cleric. Clerics are my thing, and I was the only one in the party who knew the class well enough. I thought I'd pick up some silly things, learn archery, etc. So I spend 2 Levels in Incarnate to Nerf my CL, got some nifty bonuses in return. Put together some of my basic stuff, Knowledge Devotion, Divine Warrior, DMM Persist a few stacking Str Buffs. I got Rapid Shot and Zen Archery for my archery, grabbed GMW, Raptor Arrows, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful for the Party, etc.

I have the highest Damage output in my party with my Composite Splitting Longbow.
I have the best Skill Rolls with Divine Insight.
I can fly, ignore grappling, stop foes in their tracks with a single word.
I can heal an injured party member, raise the dead, and give invaluable buffs to the party.

So we entered the Plane of Greed, and half the party was enthralled by the City of Gold. The last party member went searching for a Coin of Judas, and I charged myself with gathering the rest of the party. First, the Prestige Paladin. I pretty much picked her up, tossed her outside the city, Commanded her to stop, seduced her into behaving (one of her Deadly Sins was Lust, and I rolled high), and boosted her saves with a Conviction. Then I grabbed the Berserker. He was hugging a golden tree. A command and a Conviction. Next the Rogue. His Hide and Move silently rolls were pretty high, but a Divine Insight made the opposing Skill checks a breeze, and slapping him outta it was no problem. Afterwards, I skipped a part of the castle of Midas's castle by flying, and got him to reveal the next Entryway that lead further into Hell with some Divine Insight. While I was doing that, the rest of the Party barely 2-turned a giant enemy crab, thanks to my buffs I gave them before I left.

[ImperatorK]

Sigh. If I knew how, I'd sage this and the other "tiers suck thread".

This isn't a "tiers suck thread". And what you mean by "sage this"?

(click to show/hide)

Okay. So I am in hell, in a "Dante's Inferno" campaign. I have to save the Pope's soul from Lucifer. Along the way we meet a bunch of wacky characters, like King Midas and Cleopatra.

So the Cleric had to leave, so I scrapped my Wildshape Ranger/Revenant Blade (He was 4 corruption points from giving into his Deadly Sin, Wrath, and slaughtering the party, anyway).

I built a Cleric. Clerics are my thing, and I was the only one in the party who knew the class well enough. I thought I'd pick up some silly things, learn archery, etc. So I spend 2 Levels in Incarnate to Nerf my CL, got some nifty bonuses in return. Put together some of my basic stuff, Knowledge Devotion, Divine Warrior, DMM Persist a few stacking Str Buffs. I got Rapid Shot and Zen Archery for my archery, grabbed GMW, Raptor Arrows, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful for the Party, etc.

I have the highest Damage output in my party with my Composite Splitting Longbow.
I have the best Skill Rolls with Divine Insight.
I can fly, ignore grappling, stop foes in their tracks with a single word.
I can heal an injured party member, raise the dead, and give invaluable buffs to the party.

So we entered the Plane of Greed, and half the party was enthralled by the City of Gold. The last party member went searching for a Coin of Judas, and I charged myself with gathering the rest of the party. First, the Prestige Paladin. I pretty much picked her up, tossed her outside the city, Commanded her to stop, seduced her into behaving (one of her Deadly Sins was Lust, and I rolled high), and boosted her saves with a Conviction. Then I grabbed the Berserker. He was hugging a golden tree. A command and a Conviction. Next the Rogue. His Hide and Move silently rolls were pretty high, but a Divine Insight made the opposing Skill checks a breeze, and slapping him outta it was no problem. Afterwards, I skipped a part of the castle of Midas's castle by flying, and got him to reveal the next Entryway that lead further into Hell with some Divine Insight. While I was doing that, the rest of the Party barely 2-turned a giant enemy crab, thanks to my buffs I gave them before I left.

And that means... what? That you agree with the OP or that you disagree? Because bragging how cool your tier 1 character was isn't the point of this thread.

[dipolartech]

congrats i guess? You seemed to have used the tier 1ness of the cleric class appropriately and saved your entire group single handedly. The situation sounds like a prolonged version of a save-or-suck effect and you saved against the effect and solo'd everything.

[Kasz]

I think it's more an example of a wizard CAN control the battlefield and have his lower tier ubercharger / Archer splitting shot volley ranger / backstabbing rogue kill all the enemies whilst they're split up / dazed / confused / in fog / grappled by summoned muggens.

OR

a tier one can pick up all the party members, chuck them in an extra dimensional space and solo the encounter and get them out of the hidey hole when he's done.

which is the original point of the topic, a tier one can assist a party by being versitile enough to fit into a role the party needs and 'play nice' by making the GROUP as efficient as possible, rather than having one efficient member and three who might as well sit the encounters out.

There's no difference between a druid who only melees and a fighter who only melees except if the party suddenly needs a dispel caster the druid can fill that role even if he doesn't normally feel like it. Versitility.

The end of the day the Tiers are a good display of how versitile the classes are if played well. Versitility is power in DND because of immunities and situational effects. Your uber-charger with 0 ranks in balance is worthless on the icy floors of my frozen castle. Your druid ubercharger who can airwalk isn't. The fighter fares well in the 'anything goes' wrestling tournament, until he meets the firegiant, who happens to be a gnome sorceror in a polymorph disguise.

Tier ones can walk into tier 4's specialities and go... 'oh this? I can do this too'

That doesn't mean tier 4's aren't fun. That doesn't mean everyone who players a Tier 1 is a jerk who wants to show off over the other party members and prove he's best. It happens, then you just find a better group. Every member of a DnD group should play in a way that is FUN for EVERYONE, you're all friends.

That and the DM should shut down the Tier 1 should he get too cocky.
If he does pop the party in an extradimensional bubble to solo the encounter he'll feel very dumb once he's hit with a lockdown combo of antimagic fields and dimensional anchors and whatnot by the kobold sorceror whilst the kobold fighters the tier 4 "worthless" beatstick could have beaten...with a stick but quickly overwhelm the silenced, unbuffed str 10, con 16, grapple check 7 wizard with combined grapple score of 30 because there's 8 of them. Telling the tier 1 wizard he was knocked unconcious by a load of CR 1/2's and a single kobold sorceror is pretty priceless, especially when you add that the party he values as useless are his only hope of rescue.

(should anyone think that's just the DM being cruel, Well, it's an attempt to make the wizard respect his fighter / ranger / rogue more, to see their value.
Plus if the wizard is facerolling the encounters, the BBEG would be stupid not to invest in 'anti-wizard' defenses, possibly underestimating the rest of the party. Oh he can't be scryed on! but the ranger notices he leaves his curtains open with a use of a spyglass/telescope and good +spot is able to see a map with a clue on though the window. The traps are subpar and easily disarmed or turned on around on the trappers by the rogue. The melee minions are underequiped because of all the anti-magic defenses not leaving room in the budget for magical weapons so the fighter has a field day in his chosen profession and it all makes sense in the fluff.)

[Snowbluff]

Sigh. If I knew how, I'd sage this and the other "tiers suck thread".

This isn't a "tiers suck thread". And what you mean by "sage this"?

(click to show/hide)

Okay. So I am in hell, in a "Dante's Inferno" campaign. I have to save the Pope's soul from Lucifer. Along the way we meet a bunch of wacky characters, like King Midas and Cleopatra.

So the Cleric had to leave, so I scrapped my Wildshape Ranger/Revenant Blade (He was 4 corruption points from giving into his Deadly Sin, Wrath, and slaughtering the party, anyway).

I built a Cleric. Clerics are my thing, and I was the only one in the party who knew the class well enough. I thought I'd pick up some silly things, learn archery, etc. So I spend 2 Levels in Incarnate to Nerf my CL, got some nifty bonuses in return. Put together some of my basic stuff, Knowledge Devotion, Divine Warrior, DMM Persist a few stacking Str Buffs. I got Rapid Shot and Zen Archery for my archery, grabbed GMW, Raptor Arrows, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful for the Party, etc.

I have the highest Damage output in my party with my Composite Splitting Longbow.
I have the best Skill Rolls with Divine Insight.
I can fly, ignore grappling, stop foes in their tracks with a single word.
I can heal an injured party member, raise the dead, and give invaluable buffs to the party.

So we entered the Plane of Greed, and half the party was enthralled by the City of Gold. The last party member went searching for a Coin of Judas, and I charged myself with gathering the rest of the party. First, the Prestige Paladin. I pretty much picked her up, tossed her outside the city, Commanded her to stop, seduced her into behaving (one of her Deadly Sins was Lust, and I rolled high), and boosted her saves with a Conviction. Then I grabbed the Berserker. He was hugging a golden tree. A command and a Conviction. Next the Rogue. His Hide and Move silently rolls were pretty high, but a Divine Insight made the opposing Skill checks a breeze, and slapping him outta it was no problem. Afterwards, I skipped a part of the castle of Midas's castle by flying, and got him to reveal the next Entryway that lead further into Hell with some Divine Insight. While I was doing that, the rest of the Party barely 2-turned a giant enemy crab, thanks to my buffs I gave them before I left.

And that means... what? That you agree with the OP or that you disagree? Because bragging how cool your tier 1 character was isn't the point of this thread.

A sage is the opposite of a bump.

The point of my anecdote shows how overpowering a T1 can be. It's not how competent everyone else is, it's how competent/impatient your T1-3s are. In a game where everyone knows what they are doing, it becomes readily apparent. A single T1 can fulfill every role by himself. It's not whether or not the T4s know what they are doing, or what buffs they receive, the T1s are contributing more, and should be credited with the capabilities they grant the T4s. A team made of all powerful classes will have no problem tackling encounters a lesser team composition would be having trouble with.

TL;DR Individually, T1-3s are stronger, and a team made of them is best.

[ImperatorK]

A sage is the opposite of a bump.

What's your problem?

The point of my anecdote shows how overpowering a T1 can be.

No one is arguing against that here.

It's not how competent everyone else is, it's how competent/impatient your T1-3s are.

It's about having fun. That you can achieve by making everyone competent. Tier 1s and 2s can do it with ease.

A single T1 can fulfill every role by himself.

But one, maybe two at a time.

It's not whether or not the T4s know what they are doing, or what buffs they receive, the T1s are contributing more, and should be credited with the capabilities they grant the T4s.

Who said they aren't? And what does it have to do with this thread?

A team made of all powerful classes will have no problem tackling encounters a lesser team composition would be having trouble with.

Duh. Obviously.

TL;DR Individually, T1-3s are stronger, and a team made of them is best.

But... who is saying they aren't?

You either didn't understand the OP or you're ignoring the point.