Author Topic: The language argument  (Read 24654 times)

Offline EjoThims

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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2012, 05:44:39 PM »
In your argument, even I fail to see the importance of the prioritization.

The importance is that it shows a difference in how it was thought about by the one writing it.

The one who phrases it "With my dog, I ran." is most likely to count their dog as a key part of their life instead of simply a pet (or even a family member). They are probably running as a way to spend time with their dog instead of running anyway and just bringing their dog along.

And yes, it is presumptuous and over analytic to make assumptions based on an out of context blurb...

But in context, knowing, understanding, and making use of these distinctions is how you truly use the language as an art.

Anyone can convey basic meaning... It is utilitarian and need be only as accurate as needed. It is the drawing a line with a bushy top to symbolize trees and a squiggly line to show the location of a river.

But to create something truly impressive requires a mastery that simply cannot exist without deep understanding. The kind of understanding it takes practice and expression to learn; instead of just throwing it aside because "conveying meaning is all that matters."

ejo, i know i used different words. i know that makes a difference.

its that difference that i have been on about.

Then, perhaps, you did not communicate your ideas well, as it seemed you were attempting to attach all parts of that list to a statement declaring word order is not an absolute construct.

Perhaps, if you were better at utilizing the language, you could convey your ideas more effectively.

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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2012, 06:16:40 PM »
I hate people that turn a grammar nazi rant into a multiple page diversion. :P

Offline Nanshork

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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2012, 06:22:59 PM »
Yes, you are wrong about runned.  Runned is not proper English. 

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2012, 06:48:33 PM »
But to create something truly impressive requires a mastery that simply cannot exist without deep understanding. The kind of understanding it takes practice and expression to learn; instead of just throwing it aside because "conveying meaning is all that matters."

If you create what you think is the greatest masterpiece ever, yet no one else understands it is so great, who is the fool?

Conveying meaning is all that matters. This is the basis of all linguistic studies. What we seem to disagree with is the level of meaning that is important to convey, and what level of meaning words are ever able to convey.

Additional understanding and practice do add more versatility to your range of ability to convey meaning. This is still utilitarian.
To use you as the example, You have studied English in great depth, yet it was when you were in 7th grade that you got published. The additional understanding and practice has made you much better at using the tool of the language. But the art of language is just art, an expression. Expression is something you have always been good at. You now have a greater ability to use the tool, but has that made you any better at expressing yourself? Or understanding other expressing themselves?

I think the two are separate. Some people need better tools, some people can use lesser tools to greater effect.

And yes, it is presumptuous and over analytic to make assumptions based on an out of context blurb...

Reading into the word order of a sentence to make an inference on how a person feels about their dog is over-analytic. You have blown past where the linguistic sciences end, and have breached into psychology the second you went "well 'X' means that 'Y' is how they feel".

Psychology and Psychiatry are "soft sciences" because the study must be altered for each individual.

So the only way for this to be "in context" enough for you to make an inference on how they feel about their dog is to have analyzed the person psychologically.

However, I feel that if this goes any further, we should move this to its own thread.
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Offline altpersona

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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2012, 07:08:32 PM »
And yes, it is presumptuous and over analytic to make assumptions based on an out of context blurb...

But in context, knowing, understanding, and making use of these distinctions is how you truly use the language as an art.

Anyone can convey basic meaning... It is utilitarian and need be only as accurate as needed. It is the drawing a line with a bushy top to symbolize trees and a squiggly line to show the location of a river.

But to create something truly impressive requires a mastery that simply cannot exist without deep understanding. The kind of understanding it takes practice and expression to learn; instead of just throwing it aside because "conveying meaning is all that matters."


this sounds a lot like you agreeing with me.

language is art. art can be pretty.


Nan, its only wrong because of habit.

is it written somewhere that you must use the irregular form of a verb? if it does (god i hope you dont quote something like that) are exceptions made?

do they have a rule that says words cannot be updated?

does it not convey the same information as its regular counterpart?

do you know what it means when you read it? (other than, this guy needs to learn better english)

proper english is imaginary.

who again is the regulating body for whats proper? the old lady school marm i had for elementary school sure is not on that committee, neither is any phd english prof i ever met. 

i understand french and spanish have a system in place to regulate their languages.

if you were to offer, the british monarchy as regulators, i might buy that. but i doubt you speak the same dialect as they do, and i know they spell things differently.

say, your right. say it is improper in every way.

is improper english not still english.




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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2012, 07:18:25 PM »
Here's a quick simple article about irregular verbs.  It isn't about whether or not to use the irregular form of a verb, it is that some verbs are themselves irregular.

English is not a language where you can just adjust all verbs in the same manner to make them fit the tense you want.

Runned is improper.  Improper English is still English in the same way that Improper Spanish is still Spanish, etc.  People might still get the gist of what you're saying but that doesn't make it okay.

Words can, and are, updated.  However, the past tense of Run is Ran and will never be Runned. 

It isn't wrong because of habit.  It is wrong because English has rules.

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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2012, 07:20:17 PM »
Quote
who again is the regulating body for whats proper? the old lady school marm i had for elementary school sure is not on that committee, neither is any phd english prof i ever met. 

Just a quick thing, since I hate these type of discussions, but you might want to check out this site if you're actually interested. 


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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2012, 07:34:13 PM »

Offline ariasderros

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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2012, 07:46:12 PM »
It isn't wrong because of habit.  It is wrong because English has rules.
+1,000. But before Alt says so, the rules are often updated and changed to fit usage.

I.E. Ain't is a word now.

@Alt, can you clean up that quotebox. Amongst other reasons, it looks like you're quoting me, and you aren't.

Anyway, we really should have this moved. It has nothing to do with this thread anymore.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 07:49:10 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Nanshork

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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2012, 08:07:09 PM »
+1, this is no longer a small rant.   :p

Offline Prime32

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Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2012, 08:28:21 PM »
Aaaand split. InnaBinder can rename the thread. Should it be moved to another section though?

Offline ariasderros

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Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2012, 08:35:49 PM »
No, it's in the right place. We're all still bitching to one another about our opinions on something.
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Offline EjoThims

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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2012, 09:18:03 PM »
But to create something truly impressive requires a mastery that simply cannot exist without deep understanding. The kind of understanding it takes practice and expression to learn; instead of just throwing it aside because "conveying meaning is all that matters."

If you create what you think is the greatest masterpiece ever, yet no one else understands it is so great, who is the fool?

That's why they teach the rules... ;)

But it's not just preference, or style, or the other things alt has claimed...

It is to create the most accurate understanding possible, beyond that which is required for utilitarian uses.

Additional understanding and practice do add more versatility to your range of ability to convey meaning. This is still utilitarian.
To use you as the example, You have studied English in great depth, yet it was when you were in 7th grade that you got published. The additional understanding and practice has made you much better at using the tool of the language. But the art of language is just art, an expression. Expression is something you have always been good at. You now have a greater ability to use the tool, but has that made you any better at expressing yourself? Or understanding other expressing themselves?

I have indeed become much better at expressing myself, both on paper and in spoken word. Understanding the uses of the language, as not just a tool but an instrument has helped me in many practical ways, including as a general manager at my store. It is easier to convey a precise meaning or desire to my employees, and it is much easier to deal with both my bosses and annoying customers. The proper turn of phrase can motivate a poor worker or make a shitty customer realize that their problems are due to their own stupidity.

And if I did not know how to use the language with finesse I could not do the optimizing that I do, nor understand that done by others. I would not have set a world record here, and I would not be able to offer the homebrew advice that I do, much less work on my own large scale project.

I think the two are separate. Some people need better tools, some people can use lesser tools to greater effect.

I will agree with this entirely.

But those whose abilities become limited as their tools improve are so rare as to quite justifiably be seen as the exceptions which prove the rule; combining better skill and better tools will produce a better result than either alone.

Reading into the word order of a sentence to make an inference on how a person feels about their dog is over-analytic.

I myself said this.

You have blown past where the linguistic sciences end, and have breached into psychology the second you went "well 'X' means that 'Y' is how they feel".

Psychology and Psychiatry are "soft sciences" because the study must be altered for each individual.

So the only way for this to be "in context" enough for you to make an inference on how they feel about their dog is to have analyzed the person psychologically.

However, I feel that if this goes any further, we should move this to its own thread.

I agree with all of the above, and am glad the thread was moved.

But, the above is, precisely, my point.

One snip from one sentence will likely matter little, unless you have the context to provide it meaning.

But if you cannot determine the meaning even with that context, you are not using the language as it could be used.

The way people talk, write, and think can tell you volumes about them, when you take much of their speech or writings together. And when you know enough about a person, small changes and breaks from the norm are giant smoking beacons.

But if you never learn or pay attention to an established norm, these things are nothing but chaos to you.

And though, it seems, in large part you and I disagree only on scale; these are all examples and applications of why English does have an established norm and a 'correct' form, despite, at it's height of use, being far more an art than an equation.

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Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2012, 10:02:07 PM »
Quote from: EjoThims
The kind of understanding it takes practice and expression to learn; instead of just throwing it aside because "conveying meaning is all that matters."
No doubt the use of two sentence fragments joined by a semicolon (which would still be a fragment if they were joined with a comma) was deliberate.  I, for one, appreciate the irony.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: the language argument.
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2012, 10:16:49 PM »
And though, it seems, in large part you and I disagree only on scale; these are all examples and applications of why English does have an established norm and a 'correct' form, despite, at it's height of use, being far more an art than an equation.

Actually, after that post, I'm having trouble being able to tell where it is that our disagreement is.

    My only point was that in everyone else's argumentation, there was no display of scale, only absolutes.
    • There is room for evolution, and it is necessary. This evolution comes from peoples usage of the language, within the rules or not.
    • There is a need for the rules to be obeyed, because that prevents misunderstanding. The purpose of communication is to share a meaning.
    • Language itself is utilitarian. It is the concepts that are being communicated that are the art.

    For the record, like I said, I attempt to follow the rules of the language at all times, and regularly thumb through my copy of "The Tongue and Quill" (best English rules-book I know of).
« Last Edit: March 05, 2012, 10:20:01 PM by ariasderros »
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Offline Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2012, 03:02:37 AM »
I do find it strange that we are arguing about proper grammar, especially when you consider that most of us play an RPG where bad grammar can end up ruining a player's experience with the game. It is for this reason alone that I take my grammar seriously, even in a casual post (though I have used bad grammar in jokes).

That reason is also why I'm so meticulous when critiquing homebrew. The better the wording, the less likely it is for someone to misinterpret the meaning behind an ability and the more professional a project will look.
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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2012, 11:54:16 AM »
Quote
who again is the regulating body for whats proper? the old lady school marm i had for elementary school sure is not on that committee, neither is any phd english prof i ever met. 

Just a quick thing, since I hate these type of discussions, but you might want to check out this site if you're actually interested.

mla or apa? 


im done.

not conceding.

its just not worth carpal tunnel.
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Offline ariasderros

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Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2012, 12:03:13 PM »
@ Sinfire: This is why.
the english language is a living, dynamic thing.

what was right 20 / 50 / 100 /200 ... / years ago is no long always or ever right today.

run your sentences on, spell words as you like, and screw grammar all together.

In a nutshell, This was Alt being Chaotic; the majority of others being Lawful; and me being Neutral.
Alt: "Screw the rules, they'll change to fit you just because you're ignoring them anyway."
Ejo: "The rules are the only thing that allows the language to be understood in any way."
Me: "Both of the above are correct to an extent: it is a matter of scale and appropriate levels of respect vs disconcern; you must always make sure to ask yourself 'am I being understood?' and 'Am I communicating my point clearly and concisely to my target audience?'"
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Re: Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #58 on: March 06, 2012, 12:24:40 PM »
I'm not English, yet I try (and hopefully manage) to write properly and be understood. When someone with English as their first (and *gasp*only) language make such posts like altpersona, it only lowers my opinion of him and makes me not want to read his posts.
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Offline altpersona

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Re: The Small Rants Thread, Continued...
« Reply #59 on: March 06, 2012, 02:05:16 PM »
lol, that side of the boat will sink first.... w/ so many people over there
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