The language argument

[veekie]

My respect for the human race falls down yet another notch.

I've been grading practical tests on Introduction to Computing(you know where they just do microsoft office). I've lost faith in humanity when a third of the class seems likely to fail on tests that involve formatting text, using excel formulas, shading boxes, borders....

In a recent 300 level (3rd year of college for those elsewhere in the world) English class, the professor was forced to give reminders on the following after grading the essays:

1. Fragments bad.
2. Run-on sentences are bad they make your paper hard to read you should not use them.
3. We're going to have a 20 minute refresher course on dangling participles, because folks are structuring sentences such that the direct object is the thing taking action.

I would have walked out of that class without a second thought.  If people are that shitty, call up a study group, or send them to tutoring - if I wanted to waste my time and money watching other people learn basic english, I could go take my 100 level courses again. 

Gah - lots of bad memories of that happening back in undergrad.  I quickly learned to take even basic courses with professors with tenure - they don't give a fuck about people failing.

To be fair, the class sounds like something average Americans would find quite useful.

The class was for the American Degree Transfer Program to boot. :<

[SorO_Lost]

I'll take a shot at the ones I can. I'm probably taking these more seriously than you meant them... 

Hey it's fine, I cracked a smile on the homes comment.

Because duct tape's intended use isn't as a gag, but for bondage. 

Ouch.
Use water to remove a little less painfully.

[Jackinthegreen]

Ouch.
Use water to remove a little less painfully.

Depending on the tape, that doesn't always work.  I've run into some duct tape that acetone had problems working on.

[ariasderros]

First, Ejo. You're awesome. That was great.

One additional point though. On this one:

Why are free drinks on the house if you're served one inside?

It's the same idea as "the house always wins" when dealing with casinos. "The house" is the hosting organization or business, and the drinks are "on them" the same way they are "on me" when I buy a round for the bar when I've had too much to drink.

It's on the House['s bill].
Except blurbs (I think that's what they're called) are important to understanding certain colloquialisms.

[EjoThims]

First, Ejo. You're awesome.

 

[Tshern]

There are two ways to look at language: as an art, and as a tool.  As a tool, language is used to communicate an idea to another person, and good grammar is required in order to communicate the idea effectively.  Classic example: "Lets eat grandpa!"

Language is always a tool, no matter how you view it. People's thoughts always involve a language, so do their writings and spoken word has that quality as well. Whatever your opinion is, language always remains a tool. Language as an art is just a subcategory of language as a tool. Same goes for all concepts in social and human sciences.

[Halinn]

People's thoughts always involve a language

I can quite easily think in pictures. If you consider that a language, then everything is a language, and the word language has then lost all meaning.

[Tshern]

People's thoughts always involve a language

I can quite easily think in pictures. If you consider that a language, then everything is a language, and the word language has then lost all meaning.

And how do you define those pictures? You understand the concepts in the images in a language. Also, consciously imagining something in pictures only, without involving any language is something I seriously doubt you can do.

[RedWarlock]

People's thoughts always involve a language

I can quite easily think in pictures. If you consider that a language, then everything is a language, and the word language has then lost all meaning.

And how do you define those pictures? You understand the concepts in the images in a language. Also, consciously imagining something in pictures only, without involving any language is something I seriously doubt you can do.

Actually, you'd be surprised. I'm a very skilled English speaker with an eloquent vocabulary, but I'm also an artist, and there are a number of visual concepts which come in visual form ten times faster and easier than the describing word concept. Doubly so when you talk about movement for animation. You can ascribe words to recreate the visuals, but something is lost in the translation.

[altpersona]

People's thoughts always involve a language

I can quite easily think in pictures. If you consider that a language, then everything is a language, and the word language has then lost all meaning.

not jumping back in;

just wanted to point out that the origin of many if not all writing systems was pictures.

[Jackinthegreen]

Actually, you'd be surprised. I'm a very skilled English speaker with an eloquent vocabulary, but I'm also an artist, and there are a number of visual concepts which come in visual form ten times faster and easier than the describing word concept. Doubly so when you talk about movement for animation. You can ascribe words to recreate the visuals, but something is lost in the translation.

This I can relate to.  Pinning down the words to describe a sword's swish pales in comparison to actually visualizing it.

[Tshern]

People's thoughts always involve a language

I can quite easily think in pictures. If you consider that a language, then everything is a language, and the word language has then lost all meaning.

And how do you define those pictures? You understand the concepts in the images in a language. Also, consciously imagining something in pictures only, without involving any language is something I seriously doubt you can do.

Actually, you'd be surprised. I'm a very skilled English speaker with an eloquent vocabulary, but I'm also an artist, and there are a number of visual concepts which come in visual form ten times faster and easier than the describing word concept. Doubly so when you talk about movement for animation. You can ascribe words to recreate the visuals, but something is lost in the translation.

Conceded. My argument was a bit too extreme.

[InnaBinder]

People's thoughts always involve a language

I can quite easily think in pictures. If you consider that a language, then everything is a language, and the word language has then lost all meaning.

And how do you define those pictures? You understand the concepts in the images in a language. Also, consciously imagining something in pictures only, without involving any language is something I seriously doubt you can do.

That's more or less how Daniel Tammet (link), one of the few non-autistic savants, describes his thought process.

EDIT: You "conceded" the point as I was fetching the link, Tshern.  Apologies if I come across as 'piling on'; it wasn't my intent.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Backhanded apology for my sometimes clipped English.

I know I shouldn't laugh, but I did.

If a turtle has it's shell surgically removed, is it naked or homeless?

Dead.  You have to do catastrophic damage to remove a shell depending on the species, and most wouldn;'t survive it.

One specie of Turtle removed their shells about 200 million years ago.
It was one step in the earliest technological civilization on Earth.
They "ascended" relative to out limited understanding.
They've been monitoring our progress ... discretely.
I know this is true. I saw it on the Jesse Ventura show.
 

[EjoThims]

Conceded. My argument was a bit too extreme.

Awww... You're not fun. 

But, to add an example...

Most people experience thought without words several times a week, though some of us much more vividly, with just a simple dream.

Or mushrooms.

[Kuroimaken]

Conceded. My argument was a bit too extreme.

Awww... You're not fun. 

But, to add an example...

Most people experience thought without words several times a week, though some of us much more vividly, with just a simple dream.

Or mushrooms.

Or boners.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

you cant be both a nazi and a communist and why they are not the same thing.

One is further to the left. It's not hard to understand.

My respect for the human race falls down yet another notch.

I've been grading practical tests on Introduction to Computing(you know where they just do microsoft office). I've lost faith in humanity when a third of the class seems likely to fail on tests that involve formatting text, using excel formulas, shading boxes, borders....

In a recent 300 level (3rd year of college for those elsewhere in the world) English class, the professor was forced to give reminders on the following after grading the essays:

1. Fragments bad.
2. Run-on sentences are bad they make your paper hard to read you should not use them.
3. We're going to have a 20 minute refresher course on dangling participles, because folks are structuring sentences such that the direct object is the thing taking action.

Can someone clearly explain the grammatical error in number three?

[InnaBinder]

you cant be both a nazi and a communist and why they are not the same thing.

One is further to the left. It's not hard to understand.

My respect for the human race falls down yet another notch.

I've been grading practical tests on Introduction to Computing(you know where they just do microsoft office). I've lost faith in humanity when a third of the class seems likely to fail on tests that involve formatting text, using excel formulas, shading boxes, borders....

In a recent 300 level (3rd year of college for those elsewhere in the world) English class, the professor was forced to give reminders on the following after grading the essays:

1. Fragments bad.
2. Run-on sentences are bad they make your paper hard to read you should not use them.
3. We're going to have a 20 minute refresher course on dangling participles, because folks are structuring sentences such that the direct object is the thing taking action.

Can someone clearly explain the grammatical error in number three?

I did not demonstrate a dangling participle in the 3rd example.  An example of a dangling participle would be: "Strolling down the lane, a beautiful sunset was seen."  However, 20 minutes of class dedicated to it made me unwilling to write it off with a pseudo-clever example of how not to do it.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

 

... An example of a dangling participle would be: "Strolling down the lane, a beautiful sunset was seen."  ...

iirc - there are machine translation programs that stick in the implied nouns.

(You) strolling down the lane ... {compound sentence} ... a beautiful sunset was seen (by you).


But this gets back into the Natural Language vs English Teacher Language problem.

[EjoThims]

 

... An example of a dangling participle would be: "Strolling down the lane, a beautiful sunset was seen."  ...

iirc - there are machine translation programs that stick in the implied nouns.

(You) strolling down the lane ... {compound sentence} ... a beautiful sunset was seen (by you).


But this gets back into the Natural Language vs English Teacher Language problem.

It's still awkward as fuck, even with the omitted words actually added. It's just a construction that very poorly gets across the actual point.