Author Topic: What's the problem with GURPS?  (Read 9893 times)

Offline 10d10

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What's the problem with GURPS?
« on: March 06, 2012, 12:25:31 PM »
So, my DM wants to start a new campaign using GURPS (3ed) and we are thinking about it. Half of the players know the system, the other half is willing to learn (myself included), but I do remember many people saying bad things about the system.

I know most people here are used to D&D, so I'm asking you: what's up with GURPS? Is it really a bad system?

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 01:08:18 AM »
It's been a long time, and I'm one or two editions out of date, but I didn't have any real problems with GURPS.  It is, however, sort of the polar opposite of D&D.  Two big things spring to mind.  First off, it's much more lethal, and therefore a lot less ... heroic for lack of a better term.  Generally, you won't go wading through hordes of enemies, even if you are a total badass.

Second, it's very much not plug and play.  The sourcebooks are pretty much fantastic.  Some of the best out there, especially when they are specifically based on a series of books, movies, or a fairly tight genre.  But, it's fair to call GURPS a lot more like a toolbox.  D&D is pretty much plug and play:  you know what kind of game, broadly-speaking, you're going to get.  GURPS you have a lot more decisions to make, and there aren't things that are quite as convenient as the monster manuals.  Although that latter bit is something you can say about pretty much any game ...

Offline veekie

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 02:54:47 AM »
Well, the worst part of it is probably the fans whose answer to every roleplaying question is to 'Use GURPS' :p.

But more seriously, one of the issues is the bajillion possible skills and ways to create a character. Its trivially easy to wind up with a character that has no useful skills in a given gaming group or scenario unless you discussed what the game is about, and what you would be doing before hand. Overlapping a significant portion abilities with other players is a bonus, since the GM can at least throw something you can all remain involved with at the group.
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Offline zugschef

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 03:00:14 AM »
most obvious problem? it's extremely inaccessible. the lousy artwork comes a close second...

Offline 10d10

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 08:44:30 AM »
Well, the worst part of it is probably the fans whose answer to every roleplaying question is to 'Use GURPS' :p.

HAHA! That sounds just like my DM!

So basically, it's an OK system but hard to build and you won't be heroic motherfucker as you could be in Pathfinder and D&D...

Is it fun to play, tho'?

Offline veekie

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2012, 10:52:44 AM »
Entirely group dependent that, the system itself does get in the way if you are assuming a conflict centric game, but for general roleplaying, its not bad.

Personally prefer more freeform capabilities(at least within the 'normal' range) for generic systems, but thats not really relevant here.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline Unbeliever

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 01:40:47 PM »
Entirely group dependent that, the system itself does get in the way if you are assuming a conflict centric game, but for general roleplaying, its not bad.
...
I would not recommend it for a combat-centric game.  It's too gritty and lethal.  There are options, of course, there are always options in GURPS, but why fight against the system that much? 

What kind of campaign are you guys interested in running?  B/c, as Veekie and I have both indicated, saying "I want to play GURPS" is kind of vacuous. 

P.S.:  I find Burning Wheel fans at least as frustrating ...

Offline archangel.arcanis

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 01:47:46 PM »
I don't know about Gurps 3rd but I have played some 4th. The biggest issues we ran into were: combat being way too lethal, party members wanting to be at extremely different ranges (melee and a sniper hundreds of yards away), and the lack of pre-built enemies causing the GM to have to build everything from scratch. It really isn't appropriate for a high adventure type game as the PCs will quickly end up dead or fighting totally incompetent enemies (no chance of failure gets just as boring as the DM telling you how he killed your character this time).

Offline 10d10

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 02:21:26 PM »
What kind of campaign are you guys interested in running?  B/c, as Veekie and I have both indicated, saying "I want to play GURPS" is kind of vacuous. 

Our DM is VERY experienced in GURPS, so his world is low on magic (and magic items) and centered on resolving conflicts using other methods besides the "I'll attack him!!!"

So when we started playing D&D 3.5 (and Pathfinder after that) in his world and compared to the NPCs, our party was kind of epic and ultimate overpowering............at level 10. Sure he was able to pick up the pieces and turn the difficulty on, blast us with challenging combats, but that was not his initially proposal...

Everyone agreed to try it out (the gritty, lethal, hard stuff), since the DM is very good with story and NPC characterization, I just wanted the heads up for any eventual frustration since I came from a D&D and WoD/nWoD background where everybody is kind of strong in their own way.

Offline veekie

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 05:46:49 PM »
Ah, then you might have problems yeah. I think even WoD games handle having regular conflict better.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline 10d10

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 09:13:17 PM »
Ah, then you might have problems yeah. I think even WoD games handle having regular conflict better.

But from what you guys told me, I think it'll be nice :)

Offline bhu

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2012, 06:45:41 PM »
I second the lethality.  Most humans will have something like 10 hp.  A rifle on average does 8d6 damage.  Once you go below 0 you start making rolls to avoid death, and i cant remember what the cutoff point is where you die one way or the other but a second shot usually puts you there.  It's rocket tag on steroids: shoot first, shoot from hiding in ambush, and for gods sake dont miss and allow an opponent to fight back.

Offline veekie

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2012, 11:28:53 PM »
I hear some groups strongly recommend just rigging the place with bombs and setting them off when the enemy is near. Watch from a video feed.
Everything is edible. Just that there are things only edible once per lifetime.
It's a god-eat-god world.

Procrastination is the thief of time; Year after year it steals, till all are fled,
And to the mercies of a moment leaves; The vast concerns of an eternal scene.

Offline bhu

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2012, 11:34:37 PM »
also, I know GURPS from an older edition so in their defense they may have amended that a lil

Offline Whisper

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 04:08:48 AM »
GURPS is a good system, but it has a few major flaws.

First is lethality. This can be fixed somewhat by playing 150 pt characters, and playing some scenario where healing magic or high-tech medicine is available.

Second is scaling. 100 pt fighters own 100 pt mages. 200 pt mages are floating death fortresses that annihilate any number of 200 pt fighters. Play 150 pt characters.

Third is active defenses. They don't scale to the attacker's skill. This breaks the game at both high and low point levels. 

Offline Karlton

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2012, 07:02:57 AM »
A rifle may do a lot of damage vs. your average 12 HP hero. The AK-47 for instance does 5d6+1 points of damage, and thus a hit from such a weapon is absolutely devastating, and shouldn't it be? And its not like the average 18.5 damage will pound you directly into the negatives no matter where you are hit; Arms and legs has 1/2 your HP, and your 12 HP hero who is hit in the leg by an AK-47 will loose the function of the leg, be reduced to 6 HP, start bleeding (requires first aid in order not to bleed out), and needs to make some HT rolls to avoid permanent injuries. Head shots, while difficult to score, deals 3x damage to your total HP, and is almost always immediately lethal, unless you roll all ones, and even then you are in trouble.

So yeah, as the AK-47, when fired by your average druglord henchman, afghani mudjahadin, of central african child soldier, will spit out 3 bullets/round if he is using semi-auto (wich means that he could be aiming his shots and actually hit - Watch out!), or 8 bullets/round if he just sprays bullets in your general direction, a TPK can be achieved in a second by even the lowliest 0-point mook, and don't even think about confronting a platoon of dug-in infantry with rifles, MGs and RPGs unless you have a tank... Or rather several.

But I don't think that the lethality of the system makes the characters feel any less heroic. On the contrary, it gives the players a feeling of real danger to their characters, and suddenly fighting even the most humble foe gives the players a feeling of actually risking themselves for the cause. Some players don't like it, but others do.. Its hit or miss really. Ive been playing a combat heavy GURPS campaign with some fellow army guys some time ago, and it worked great, but when I introduced the system to my D&D friends, I killed them all in the first encounter, and they never wanted to play the game again. The phrase "Hes only carrying a .38? Bah! I have plenty of hit points. I charge!" has since entered our hall of famous last words.

Offline KicktheCAN

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Re: What's the problem with GURPS?
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2012, 08:49:35 PM »
The problems with lethality can be alleviated by simply focusing a little bit more on your hit points and wearing some good armor.

I just started GMing a GURPS supers campaign and the players put almost all of their points into advantages (as GURPS newbs are wont to do). I insisted that people focus more on their Hit Points but people still had 14 to 20 hit points. So I ran their characters through a little mock combat before starting the campaign. They have all rethought their point allocation.