Chaos, the least defined alignment discussion

[divinedragonslayer]

Understanding the Chaos alignment (Or how I stopped worrying about stupid evil and learned to love demons)

Ah yes the chaotic alignment. The alignment of chaotic evil stupid wanton destruction and pain for the sake of wanton pain and destruction as well as the alignment of selfishness to some. Yes those might be chaotic to an extent, but I don't think they embody what chaos really is. Good, evil, and law as primal forces are fairly easy to understand as far as I can see, but not chaos. My question is what is chaos? How does it act as an alignment? How does it act as a primal force as it pertains to Good, Evil, and Law? What about outsiders such as demons and Elidrin? I'll have these questions in separate paragraphs.

First of all the question fundamental to understanding Chaos; what is chaos?

I have yet to find a suitable answer for this as it pertains to an alignment. Chaos itself is the primal force of chance and change. And the plane of Limo itself is the true embodiment of Chaos. A plane where everything is different and a great enough force of will is enough to change the plane. Assuming that primal Chaos has a goal what is it? Is there some overarching goal all chaotic beings have? This is a question I'll ask in a deeper sense when I talk about planar exemplars.

What is a chaotic person like?

I know there is varying degrees of personalities and this is a stupid question to ask, but if you were designing a character what would a chaotic neutral person be like? I see a chaotic neutral person as a free thinker. Following his or her own beliefs without little care or worry what others think. These beliefs and ideals have a habit of changing quite often. This may or may not include disorganization at times in thought or in physical life. I do think that a person is capable of long goals, just maybe not planning. I do not think that chaotic evil means a hunger for wanton destruction. I think chaotic evil means that one is willing to do what's necessary to get what he or she wants. Though the short term plans constantly change with every little new detail.

Exemplars of Chaos

This one is a tough one because I'm fairly sure it states in the books that chaotic evil hungers for destruction above all else. But is it realistic to say that demon lords and princes only hunger to cause destruction and pain? I honestly don't think so. They may revel in it, but even Demigorgon who is the very definition of insane has plans and aspirations right? Personal power, glory, or who knows what drives the demented minds. I'm most interested in seeing what comes up about demons. I don't really understand a thing about the creatures so as a DM I don't think I can use them quite effectively.

[Sinfire Titan]

Personally, the best sourcebook to get an idea of what Chaos can be like wasn't published by WotC, nor is it even a real splatbook: The Liber Chaotica. While it has several examples of what Chaotic Stupid is played as, it also has several really good examples of how Chaotic characters should be (although the book doesn't address Chaotic Good at all).

[zugschef]

being chaotic actually makes you lawful.

[veekie]

One thing a lot of players and writers tend to mix up is the differences between physical Chaos, conceptual Chaos and Chaos as an end to itself. Similar to Law, the problem comes because Good and Evil have no physical equivalencies and baggage,  they are in themselves, entirely codes of behavior and goals.

Physical Order and Chaos are Stasis and Change.
Conceptual Order and Chaos are Structure and Randomness.
Ethical Order and Chaos are Collectivist(follow or create an external structure/code) and Individualist(by the individual, for individuals, also associated with freedom, though iffy because modern morals also considers freedom a Good).

The problem comes when people play it with their physical and conceptual aspects thrown in(which in turn is derived from Moorcock's writing, as cosmic Law and Chaos ARE inclusive of those, putting them beyond mortal comprehension), resulting in characters who make no sense as people.

[divinedragonslayer]

Sinfire Titan: If I can find the book I think would be a good investment. But we'll see what happens.

Veekie: That's where I keep going wrong I guess. I keep mixing up Conceptual and Ethical chaos. I know it's getting a bit off topic, but how do you see chaos playing out in demons? I know it's a stupid question, but it's at the heart of my question. Several books say demons want nothing but destruction. To me it seems almost seems as the writers didn't want to put a lot of work into demons at the time by just saying they want to destroy things and gain power over other demons.

[InnaBinder]

Sinfire Titan: If I can find the book I think would be a good investment. But we'll see what happens.

Veekie: That's where I keep going wrong I guess. I keep mixing up Conceptual and Ethical chaos. I know it's getting a bit off topic, but how do you see chaos playing out in demons? I know it's a stupid question, but it's at the heart of my question. Several books say demons want nothing but destruction. To me it seems almost seems as the writers didn't want to put a lot of work into demons at the time by just saying they want to destroy things and gain power over other demons.

If I were to delve into the tricky business of guessing the writers' motivation for using broad strokes in describing the demons' behavior vis a vis alignment, I'd wager that they recognized that any behavior they described as justified by the Chaotic aspect of the demons' alignment would lead to debate about "Wai U no understand Chaos, n00b!" from players with differing concepts of what Chaos means in play.  Alignment seemingly always creates debates, in part because actions can be justified from different perspectives, and viewing things from different perspectives is not something a lot of folks are good at or comfortable with.  For example, I've seen it argued that Heath Ledger's Joker - whom I'd peg as firmly Chaotic Evil - was Lawful because he was able to make elaborate plans and work toward their completion.  Whether I personally think that argument holds any water or not is of little consequence at that person's table, as I'd have to conform to their concept of Law/Chaos if I wanted to game with that person.

[divinedragonslayer]

I agree that alignments are really open to interpretation and there is no definitive solid answer. I think that it's easy to lump devils into the cunning planners who revel in intrigue that can last thousands of years while demons being the polar opposite in alignment nothing more than bloodthirsty brutes.

While I'm sure demons love causing pain and suffering as well as being far more short sighted I don't think they're completely lacking in the ability to have far reaching goals or plans. They may end up shifting plans and goals, but they are far more intelligent than the mere brutes and to play them as just frontline brutes is losing a lot of their potential. But that's off topic.

[veekie]

I would personally have all sane beings be Ethical Chaos inclined, including CG, CN and CE outsiders.

CG - To do good for all people, one by one, by your own efforts and by your own hand. The Knight-Errant type.
CN - To offer choice in doing what you want, for others and for yourself, unfettered by the bounds of others, whether person or societies. This is mildly contradictory of course, since you would then also personally choose to prevent people from exercising their freedom to take away the freedom of others.
CE - To cause as much personal suffering for your own benefit as you can. You might consider it to be a sort of qualitative torment, they don't care if they are damning a thousand souls or one, but that ONE now, is going to enjoy the fruits of every creative effort you can extract.

The ability to plan, improvise or be creative is entirely unrelated to the ethical aspect of Law/Chaos, other than restricting the types of plans you may impose.

Now insane beings on the other hand, especially for things outside the universe or high end exemplars, may indeed exercise conceptual and physical chaos as parts of their codes of behavior. This isn't really an alignment, so much as a personality quirk, though it might react with aligned spells(as the Subtype perhaps).
Heck, Law and Chaos fit in easily as fundamental elemental forces when taken that way, and generate ethically neutral elementals of these concepts, who are chaotic/lawful purely in the sense of change and stasis. Its a bit on the broad side, but these terms also fit with Chance and Fate, or Time(as a third axis both shares in).

[divinedragonslayer]

So the difference between neutral evil and chaotic evil is that evil isn't always enjoyed while chaotic evil takes pleasure in the suffering?

[oslecamo]

While I'm sure demons love causing pain and suffering as well as being far more short sighted I don't think they're completely lacking in the ability to have far reaching goals or plans. They may end up shifting plans and goals, but they are far more intelligent than the mere brutes and to play them as just frontline brutes is losing a lot of their potential. But that's off topic.

But that's the whole point of demons, to be the frontline brutes that simply want to watch everything else burn down.

If you want long-term planning you go to the devils, if you want a middle ground you go for the yugoloths.

[Kajhera]

While I'm sure demons love causing pain and suffering as well as being far more short sighted I don't think they're completely lacking in the ability to have far reaching goals or plans. They may end up shifting plans and goals, but they are far more intelligent than the mere brutes and to play them as just frontline brutes is losing a lot of their potential. But that's off topic.

But that's the whole point of demons, to be the frontline brutes that simply want to watch everything else burn down.

If you want long-term planning you go to the devils, if you want a middle ground you go for the yugoloths.

Or you go for the long-term plan to burn everything down - which will be pursued by the succubus with ambitions to be a lillitu, for instance.

Not all of them are front-line brutes after all. 

[oslecamo]

Well, succubus are considerably rougher and wilder than lillitus in the bed.

[Kajhera]

So the difference between neutral evil and chaotic evil is that evil isn't always enjoyed while chaotic evil takes pleasure in the suffering?

It's more that an Evil outsider will pretty much always take pleasure in people suffering, rather than a distinction between Neutral and Chaotic.

For evil outsiders, a difference is probably that a NE one can be a member of a group without resentment, though they do plenty of horrible things to ensure their own power, while a CE one will wind up chafing at the force the leader of the group uses to keep 'em in line or just because they have power there. Groups tend towards groups of individuals (disorganized hordes, highest unit before species boundaries groups of 'friends') or groups of those who resent their slavemaster (kind of unstable).

[divinedragonslayer]

For the long term planning I'm looking more at the demon lords and princes. I doubt that many demons really do have long term goals.

[Shadowhunter]

For anyone familiar with Jung/Myers Briggs typology, I would say that Lawful and Chaos have a slight correlation with Judging and Perceiving.

Judgers crave Safety. That's why they organise things, make up structure etc. It's a way to control the environment around them to provide them with Safety.

Percievers on the other hand crave Freedom. The like to keep their options open, hate to be bound by obligations etc. They relate to the word in a way that makes them desire the option to choose more than anything else.

I see it in much the same way about Law/Chaos. Lawful people crave stability to provide safety. Chaos crave freedom to decide for themselves.

It's not the complete picture, but I think it's a facet worth mentioning.

[Kajhera]

Huh. I'm pretty sure I tested IN?P ... but I like having familiar and safe habits, structures and rules and just wind up really disorganized.

Then again, I also tested Neutral so could be right. It's the T/F axis I was really smack in the middle though.

[veekie]

So the difference between neutral evil and chaotic evil is that evil isn't always enjoyed while chaotic evil takes pleasure in the suffering?

Not at all, all alignments are free to take pleasure in their aligned actions, or not. Chaotic evil is simply more focused on the personal nature of the cruelties while Neutral evil is just malicious without qualifiers.

[InnaBinder]

So the difference between neutral evil and chaotic evil is that evil isn't always enjoyed while chaotic evil takes pleasure in the suffering?

Not at all, all alignments are free to take pleasure in their aligned actions, or not. Chaotic evil is simply more focused on the personal nature of the cruelties while Neutral evil is just malicious without qualifiers.

+1.  I tend to think NE is Evil for Evil's sake, whereas CE is Evil for the fun of it or for its destructive nature.

[divinedragonslayer]

I don't like chaotic evil being out for destruction only. But then again maybe that's simplifying things too much. But I'm apprehensive about chaotic evil falling into the chaotic stupid alignment. Then again it depends on how you define evil. There is evil that seeks to destroy and hurt for the sake of hurting people, but there's also the side of evil that is success at any costs. Granted that itself may end up being neutral evil instead of chaotic evil.

[veekie]

I don't like chaotic evil being out for destruction only. But then again maybe that's simplifying things too much. But I'm apprehensive about chaotic evil falling into the chaotic stupid alignment. Then again it depends on how you define evil. There is evil that seeks to destroy and hurt for the sake of hurting people, but there's also the side of evil that is success at any costs. Granted that itself may end up being neutral evil instead of chaotic evil.

Destruction for its own sake or causing harm for personal gain is simply the flavor of evil, and is a dimension independent of the L/C axis. The difference there would only be perspective and approach, L is likely to make use of institutionalized evil, while C is likely to be personal evil.
While everyone acts for personal gain to some degree, Evil is defined as going beyond that, being willing to cause harm for gain and preferring to cause harm where options exist. It does not preclude other motivations, and for non-supernatural creatures, some other motivation WILL exist.